Pour le Merite 9mm Mini

[Steve Russell]

Guys,

I posted this over at WAF but not much interest has generated. As I am still in a probationary status, I could not post the pics here adequately but this one is not on the other link. Here is the link with more photos:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=181922

I am curious to find the maker of this mini. I recently acquired this 9mm one-sided PlM miniature. It looks to be made of gold and has enamel and clear workmanship. Any idea who made these tiny ones?

Dan Murphy - Does this one match yours? I thought I saw in a post one time that you had a similar 9mm.

Les - Have you seen many of these 9mm types?

Comments and opinions welcome. Steve

[attachmentid=56856]

Edited October 12, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Daniel Murphy]

Steve,

I do not have one of these, but would like to. The one I used as an avatar was used with permission of the owner and it was on a stickpin. On many little items like this it is next to impossible to determine who made it. However the detail displayed on this small item and if gold, would mean it was a product of one of the finest jewelers in Germany. Sorry I cannot help any further.

Dan

[Wild Card]

Hi Steve,

Nice little PLM that you have there. Over the years, I have seen a number of these little guys that really run the gamut in terms of detail and quality. A good example would be to compare your mini to mine (below). Notice how the eagles in yours are nicely cut out while mine are, well, uh .... cute little blobs that sort of look like eagles. Also, it would take some photoshop work that is beyond me to make mine look like (yours) gold.

With regard to specific makers, I can only say that I have seen examples on buttonhole devices marked to Godet; and as I recall their quality tends to be toward the high end.

I hope that some of this information is helpful; and as I said... nice little PLM...

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Steve Russell]

Thanks Wild Card. I like that one as well. Is it 16mm?

I was really happy with this 9mm one. It came out of Germany. Becasue it is one-sided and high end, I wondered if Meybauer might have made it. The Godet examples I have seen so far, are 16mm, but they certainly produced everything. I am hoping someone can shed some light on it or find it in a catalogue. Steve

Edited October 13, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Les]

Thanks Wild Card. I like that one as well. Is it 16mm?

I was really happy with this 9mm one. It came out of Germany. Becasue it is one-sided and high end, I wondered if Meybauer might have made it. The Godet examples I have seen so far, are 16mm, but they certainly produced everything. I am hoping someone can shed some light on it or find it in a catalogue. Steve

Steve,

The seller has been selling the same version on ebay for quite some time. Every few weeks or months, he lists another one, exactly like the other ones.

Even without making comparisons to other known "minis", consider this:

The "minis" are usually not all that well made, and they don't appear to have been stamped out from the same set of dies. "Michaelju" seems to have an unlimited stock of ones, and the fact they are identical is a -very- strong indication of them being recently made for the "collector" market.

Without going into the long version of why, yours wasn't made pre-1945.....

Les

[Daniel Cole]

My thoughts exactly. Minis are awesome pieces of work. I once had a really nice HHOX. You don't see mini that often exept for the PLM. Micheleju must have a great supply soiurce for these!

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello folks:

Unfortunately Steve, I am with Les on this one. The seller is a known purveyor of counterfeit items. The fact that these have appeared more than once should be an indicator of recent (very recent) manufacture.

I years ago saw this individual selling good quality cast copies of very rare miniature Napoleonic campaign medals. Caution should be used by everyone when dealing with this fellow.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Steve Russell]

Hello folks:

Unfortunately Steve, I am with Les on this one. The seller is a known purveyor of counterfeit items. The fact that these have appeared more than once should be an indicator of recent (very recent) manufacture.

I years ago saw this individual selling good quality cast copies of very rare miniature Napoleonic campaign medals. Caution should be used by everyone when dealing with this fellow.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Ok guys thanks. That is why I posted it here. I can accept not pre-45. Would be nice if it was while guys were living though as Jewelers do vary. But I accept the information on all of your word that the vendor is a fraud. I set a price I was willing to pay as if it might be a reproduction, given that minis can go for huge sums. So I am not out a great deal - $135.00. Would rather it would be, but at least there is not $850 & up into it. It is very well made, looks to have gold content and still looks pretty next to my Meybauer.

As I take no offense to any comments given here, how about an education on this particular mini and PlM minis in general. Les (and others), please share what you know on this one (what you should look for, etc.) and other minis for the benefit of all. I have archived several photos but maybe this thread could serve as a good survey of PLM minis. Thanks. Steve

[Steve Russell]

Here is a similar 9mm mini. I forget where I found the pics but it was on one of the big online auction houses. Were there no 9mm minis? I am curious on this one as well. Steve

[attachmentid=57053] [attachmentid=57054] [attachmentid=57056] [attachmentid=57057]

[Wild Card]

Hello folks:

I years ago saw this individual selling good quality cast copies of very rare miniature Napoleonic campaign medals. Caution should be used by everyone when dealing with this fellow.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi SPM,

Do you recall which very rare miniature Napoleonic campaign medals were being faked?

Thanks,

Wild Card

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Wildcard:

I recall a group of two ~20mm W?rttemberg campaign (perhaps Paris)/bravery medals in silver. I don't recall specifically which ones as it was some time ago (over 10 years). At first they looked OK, but upon close inspection they were undoubtedly cast forgeries of recent (at that time) manufacture.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Ralph A]

More.

[Ralph A]

Reverse.

[Ralph A]

A crummy one.

[Ralph A]

Oaks.

[Ralph A]

The set.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Guys,

I posted this over at WAF but not much interest has generated. As I am still in a probationary status, I could not post the pics here adequately but this one is not on the other link. Here is the link with more photos:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=181922

I am curious to find the maker of this mini. I recently acquired this 9mm one-sided PlM miniature. It looks to be made of gold and has enamel and clear workmanship. Any idea who made these tiny ones?

Dan Murphy - Does this one match yours? I thought I saw in a post one time that you had a similar 9mm.

Les - Have you seen many of these 9mm types?

Comments and opinions welcome. Steve

[attachmentid=56856]

This looks to me like a modern charm bracelet trinket.

[Steve Russell]

Ralph, thanks for those minis. Truly beautiful. I particularly like the faux baroque style on the pie wedge of the first one. I hope others will post theirs so the thread can serve as a useful reference for PlM Minis.

To Brian, I suppose it is possible.

To all, I guess my original question still stands, "Has anyone encountered 9mm minis before?"

I concede that this mini could be post 45. I would argue that most minis were post 1918. I presented one above in four pics that is identical to mine and certainly looks ok. This same style has also been encountered in stick pins in 9mm, as Dan can attest to.

I also apologize for the quality of the pics. This thing is so small it is very hard to get closer. If you look at the link in the first post it will take you to a few more detailed pics on the WAF. It appears to be gold. And it appears to have very fine workmanship to be so very small. Has anyone encountered 9mm minis before?

Thanks to all for your continued discussion, submissions and input. Steve

Edited October 15, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Wild Card]

Ralph, thanks for those minis... Has anyone encountered 9mm minis before?

Thanks to all for your continued discussion, submissions and input. Steve

Hi Steve,

Sorry, I did not address this question before. Yes, some years ago, I had a PLM mini, since sold, which would have measured about 9 mm. Unfortunately, I do not have not been able to locate any pictures of it. It was of gold and definitely early to mid 19th century; but the most outstanding feature was the translucent cobalt blue enamel. Actually, minis of that era most often tended to be in the 9 mm scale.

If I manage to find a picture of it, I will post it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited October 15, 2006 by Wild Card

[Daniel Krause]

I remember some years ago a dealer in Germany (well known to me) got a box with 200 !!!!! of that 9mm plm minis from an old outfitters stock.

Best regards

Daniel

[Steve Russell]

Well that's encouraging Daniel. Especially given that Bob Hritz and I landed near identical pieces and he is certainly no ametuer. I remember in the 1980s running across a half dozen Luftwaffe mini devices. To see them together now, they would look suspect, but they are very real and very high quality. As I said over in the WAF, I thought it possible that a small lot of these 9mm minis could have surfaced given the quality and materials (gold). Bob stated that his came from a small lot.

I would be interested in why these (other than the vendor they may have come from) would or would not be legitimate minis, given that this identical design exists on legitimate stick pins. Here's one below. Can't remember where it came from so apologies if it belongs to someone. I will remove or credit if so. Thanks for the continued discussion. Steve

[attachmentid=57726]

Edited October 20, 2006 by Steve Russell

[Steve Russell]

Thought you guys might be interested in Stephen Prevetera's opinion on this over at the WAF. Steve

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...d=1#post1643006

[Steve Russell]

To continue the thread as a repository for PlM Minis, I've noticed a disturbing trend in some new minis appearing on the market. These appear to be similar to the full-sized Spanish fakes and show the same spotty pale blue enamel. Here is a side by side example that someone showed at an auction. Both were being passed as original.

[attachmentid=62898]

More to follow. I am also posting for opinions a piece being offered that appears to me to have a legit Godet Knopfloch with a poorly drilled hole on the band and a fake Spanish PlM mini added. That's what it looks like to me anyway. Would be interested in opinions on this and also what I am calling the Spanish mini fake. Steve

[Steve Russell]

Here is a side by side on the mini next to the Spanish full-size fake above. Note the drill holes. Next to it is also a current eBay offering.

[attachmentid=62899]

Note the enamel separation on the 'r' in rite and also on the arm corners.

[Steve Russell]

And here is the same style 'Spanish' fake(?) on a real Godet 2-er EK, HK knopfloch being offered currently on eBay. Note the poorly drilled hole on the band. Ashame that, while common, an orignal Godet knopfloch was damaged to do this bit of trickery. At least that is my opinion. Thoughts? Steve

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Edited November 30, 2006 by Steve Russell