Who would have earned a bar like this?

[dond]

Staff weenie or fighter?

[dond]

The reverse.

[W McSwiggan]

Perhaps an old Major put on retired list at beginning of WWI. As I recall, Baden tended to put swords on war time awards regardless of combat status. Let's call that a starting guess at any rate.

[Jacky]

regardless of who won this bar... It is a wonderfull little thingie

How much would that cost in open-market???

Kind regards,

Jacky

[militaria0815]

Perhaps an old Major put on retired list at beginning of WWI. As I recall, Baden tended to put swords on war time awards regardless of combat status. Let's call that a starting guess at any rate.

The book of Erhard Roth about Baden awards in WW1 is listing 2nd and 1st Lieutenants only as recipients of the knight's cross 2nd class with swords. Most probably the owner of the medal bar was an Army reserve Lieutenant. A very nice bar!

[W McSwiggan]

You conclude that this is a second class Knight's Cross based on what.

To my eye it is gold plated and hence a first class not second. This would place the recipient at the grade of major at the time of award per my understanding.

Anyone else have an opinion? I claim no expertise in visual identification but I do know that the knight 2nd class was silver not gold and both the swords and medal appear gold plated to me.

The book of Erhard Roth about Baden awards in WW1 is listing 2nd and 1st Lieutenants only as recipients of the knight's cross 2nd class with swords. Most probably the owner of the medal bar was an Army reserve Lieutenant. A very nice bar!

[Dave Danner]

It looks gold to me too, though my eyes are a year older as of Monday.

The only issue I have with ID'ing it as a major off the retired list is the lack of a long service and a Centenary Medal. And, if a Badener, a Bronze 1902 Jubilee Medal. But perhaps the wearer eschewed "mere" service and commemoratives.

My inclination, though mere guess, was that the RAO and KO might be civilian long and faithful service awards, and the person was acting in some sort of wartime capacity that was major-equivalent in earning the ZLO with swords. That might explain the lack of a military DA and Centenary.

[militaria0815]

It looks gold to me too, though my eyes are a year older as of Monday.

The only issue I have with ID'ing it as a major off the retired list is the lack of a long service and a Centenary Medal. And, if a Badener, a Bronze 1902 Jubilee Medal. But perhaps the wearer eschewed "mere" service and commemoratives.

My inclination, though mere guess, was that the RAO and KO might be civilian long and faithful service awards, and the person was acting in some sort of wartime capacity that was major-equivalent in earning the ZLO with swords. That might explain the lack of a military DA and Centenary.

All 2nd classes had golden swords, a golden back medaillon ring and golden lion! And the backside of the crossarms do not look like gold. Thats why I thought it is a 2nd class but it is hard to say from a picture.

[Jacky]

Indeed, that's just what I thought.

A gold-looking front but a silverlooking back...

Maybe they were trying to cut costs??

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I would have gone with the back color, silver...

Dave, happy belated Birthday.

[Dave Danner]

Which might lend more credence to it being a civilian RAO/KO combo? With the ZLO earned as a Lt. or Lt.-equivalent in some rear capacity (the lack of an EK makes me think he wasn't someone called up and given command of a platoon)?

Brian, thanks.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Dave Danner

[dond]

Isn't the 1st class OZL slightly larger than the second class or am I mistaken?

[Jacky]

Hi Don,

I could be mistaken, but a little search on the WWW told me that both classes are 40 mm.

You will have to do it with this untill someone with more experience shows up.

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Guest Rick Research]

Absence of long service, 1897, and an Iron Cross suggests to me that Somebody Not Nice has switched a peacetime OZL off and put on one with swords on a civil servant's bar.

I've never been entirely clear as to who got the Baden 1902, but not everybody did.

[dond]

Absence of long service, 1897, and an Iron Cross suggests to me that Somebody Not Nice has switched a peacetime OZL off and put on one with swords on a civil servant's bar.

I've never been entirely clear as to who got the Baden 1902, but not everybody did.

Hi Rick, where ya been? Vacation? Are you sure about the switcharoo because I have a peacetime one laying around here somewhere so I could restore it.

[saschaw]

Absence of long service, 1897, and an Iron Cross suggests to me that Somebody Not Nice has switched a peacetime OZL off and put on one with swords on a civil servant's bar.

Well, this is what I indeed thought when I looked at the bar in Illingen, so we didn't buy it, and the same again when it came up on Ebay some months later. The Z?hringer ribbon also seems to be a bit damaged where the ring sits, doesn't it?

I've never been entirely clear as to who got the Baden 1902, but not everybody did.

Shall I type and translate the list? It lists almost any persons of the official life, and any Badener who was Officer or a higher Beamter, even normal soldiers having served yet some years (but not all!) got them. I think we will hardly find a bar of a "Zivil-Beamter" with Z?hringer but without the 1902 medal, at least talking about post 1902 bars. So this bar still remains strange to me, but looks actually very fine though. A very favoured beamter who entered service short after 1902 and got these three (Z?hringer without swords, methinks still, too) before 1914? Possible, but not the usual way ...

[dond]

Better?

[Guest Rick Research]

Now I wonder if that should have oakleaves as a Knight 2nd? It seems to hang too high there.

[dond]

I have a set of those too. If he had the oaks wouldn't he have had other awards?

Edited November 10, 2006 by dond

[Guest Rick Research]

Not if a civilian.

[Gerd Becker]

Whoever it may be, its a wonderful bar with three of my favourite orders. Nice one, Don

[Jacky]

wunderbar, as the decorandee should have said when he sees this bar!!

Sounds better and better all the time.

Kind regards,

Jacky