Ribbon bar, ID possible?

[dond]

This is one I saw at a show. What awards are present? Any chance of an ID?

Thanks

[Dave Danner]

This is one I saw at a show. What awards are present? Any chance of an ID?

Thanks

It appears to be:

Bavaria: Military Merit Cross (pre-1912 ribbon)

Bavaria: K?nig-Ludwig-Kreuz

Prussia: Iron Cross 2nd Class on the white/black ribbon

Austria-Hungary: Franz-Josef Orden, Grand Cross with War Decoration

Austria-Hungary: Marianerkreuz

Bulgaria: National Order for Civil Merit, Grand Cross

Maybe there's another Bavarian decoration that uses the same ribbon as the older MVO ribbon?

Edited October 17, 2006 by Dave Danner

[dond]

Thanks for the info Dave. Is this bar traceble then?

[Stogieman]

Yep, it's to a Bavarian! ;>)

[Dave Danner]

My guess is it was to a Bavarian in some sort of civil capacity whose other awards - maybe Order of St. Michael, Civil Merit Order of the Bavarian Crown, etc. - were higher grades so not on the ribbon bar.

[dond]

So are you saying we can rule out military and persons of nobility?

[Dave Danner]

A military recipient with foreign orders that high would have had enough time in service to have a long service cross and the 1905 Jubilee Medal for the Bavarian Army. And given the grades of those orders, a lot of other stuff. Also, the Bulgarian order is a civil order; it could be given to military personnel, but not usually, and those military personnel who had it usually also had another Bulgarian order more commonly seen among soldiers. The Franz Josef was more commonly seen, but even that was also, like the Red Eagle, as much a civil as a military order.

I don't know much about nobility, but given the rather high grades of the Austrian and Bulgarian orders, it wouldn't surprise me.

It's the Iron Cross on the white/black ribbon that throws me. I am trying to imagine what circumstances might lead someone, say a Bavarian baron running a charitable organization or something, to get an MVO before the war and the K?nig-Ludwig-Kreuz during the war for war services, and whatever else doesn't show up on the bar, plus the higher orders from the two German allies. And then get him an Iron Cross on the ribbon you see most typically for medical personnel at the front, but maybe Rick L. has a better perspective on other circumstances. Or maybe there are other ribbons and I have the ID wrong.

[webr55]

The Marianerkreuz was - as I recall - only given to members of the nobility with some kind of medical connection. This must be quite a high non-military Bavarian functionary. Probably not traceable in the usual military sources however.

[dond]

Thanks for the replies. Do you think this could be part of a split ribbon bar? Lower stuff on a 2d row?

[Dave Danner]

Thanks for the replies. Do you think this could be part of a split ribbon bar? Lower stuff on a 2d row?

No, logically, there isn't much of anything "lower" than the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order. Any German awards lower than an order, such as coronation, jubilee, marriage or service medals, would rank higher than any foreign awards, no matter what grade the foreign award is. So the only things that might appear on a secong row might be a bunch more foreign orders, and there is no reason for that to be the case. And even if the guy had a bunch more foreign orders, they would also likely be commander 1st class or grand cross level awards which don't normally show up on ribbon bars. Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria were among the few whose higher grade awards show up as miniature devices on ribbon bars like this.

The guy probably had, as mentioned, other Bavarian orders of higher grade, and also likely other German state orders of higher grade, but these also wouldn't show up on a ribbon bar.

Bavaria also, unlike other states, didn't have any prewar weddings or jubilees such that everyone close to the royal court had a commemorative to make it easier to identify those who attended or served.

[Stogieman]

Excellent dissertation and examination Dave. Thanks! White Black EK2 was given to many non-medical, non-combattants.... so I wouldn't rule it out.

[dond]

Here is the reverse of the bar for those who are interested.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ahhhhhh. I wasn't sure from the front, being so minty frsh, if those were original ribbons.

But the BACK shows these are silk ribbons, with period hardware.

It is indeed a strange combination, but I think it is a NAUGHTY bar, with only the DECORATIONS being worn as "reduced wear," with native "ehhh" stuff dropped to flash the glittery foreign stuff.

As a PARTIAL group-- one row being worn, but NOT all this person's awards-- I don't know about identifiable, because of vthe missing items that would have clarified more.

But it's

[dond]

Thanks Rick and everyone else. I'm always willing to learn more.