dond Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 This is one I saw at a show. What awards are present? Any chance of an ID?Thanks
Dave Danner Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) This is one I saw at a show. What awards are present? Any chance of an ID?ThanksIt appears to be:Bavaria: Military Merit Cross (pre-1912 ribbon)Bavaria: K?nig-Ludwig-Kreuz Prussia: Iron Cross 2nd Class on the white/black ribbonAustria-Hungary: Franz-Josef Orden, Grand Cross with War DecorationAustria-Hungary: MarianerkreuzBulgaria: National Order for Civil Merit, Grand CrossMaybe there's another Bavarian decoration that uses the same ribbon as the older MVO ribbon? Edited October 17, 2006 by Dave Danner
dond Posted October 18, 2006 Author Posted October 18, 2006 Thanks for the info Dave. Is this bar traceble then?
Dave Danner Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 My guess is it was to a Bavarian in some sort of civil capacity whose other awards - maybe Order of St. Michael, Civil Merit Order of the Bavarian Crown, etc. - were higher grades so not on the ribbon bar.
dond Posted October 19, 2006 Author Posted October 19, 2006 So are you saying we can rule out military and persons of nobility?
Dave Danner Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 A military recipient with foreign orders that high would have had enough time in service to have a long service cross and the 1905 Jubilee Medal for the Bavarian Army. And given the grades of those orders, a lot of other stuff. Also, the Bulgarian order is a civil order; it could be given to military personnel, but not usually, and those military personnel who had it usually also had another Bulgarian order more commonly seen among soldiers. The Franz Josef was more commonly seen, but even that was also, like the Red Eagle, as much a civil as a military order.I don't know much about nobility, but given the rather high grades of the Austrian and Bulgarian orders, it wouldn't surprise me. It's the Iron Cross on the white/black ribbon that throws me. I am trying to imagine what circumstances might lead someone, say a Bavarian baron running a charitable organization or something, to get an MVO before the war and the K?nig-Ludwig-Kreuz during the war for war services, and whatever else doesn't show up on the bar, plus the higher orders from the two German allies. And then get him an Iron Cross on the ribbon you see most typically for medical personnel at the front, but maybe Rick L. has a better perspective on other circumstances. Or maybe there are other ribbons and I have the ID wrong.
webr55 Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 The Marianerkreuz was - as I recall - only given to members of the nobility with some kind of medical connection. This must be quite a high non-military Bavarian functionary. Probably not traceable in the usual military sources however.
dond Posted October 19, 2006 Author Posted October 19, 2006 Thanks for the replies. Do you think this could be part of a split ribbon bar? Lower stuff on a 2d row?
Dave Danner Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 Thanks for the replies. Do you think this could be part of a split ribbon bar? Lower stuff on a 2d row?No, logically, there isn't much of anything "lower" than the Bulgarian Civil Merit Order. Any German awards lower than an order, such as coronation, jubilee, marriage or service medals, would rank higher than any foreign awards, no matter what grade the foreign award is. So the only things that might appear on a secong row might be a bunch more foreign orders, and there is no reason for that to be the case. And even if the guy had a bunch more foreign orders, they would also likely be commander 1st class or grand cross level awards which don't normally show up on ribbon bars. Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria were among the few whose higher grade awards show up as miniature devices on ribbon bars like this.The guy probably had, as mentioned, other Bavarian orders of higher grade, and also likely other German state orders of higher grade, but these also wouldn't show up on a ribbon bar. Bavaria also, unlike other states, didn't have any prewar weddings or jubilees such that everyone close to the royal court had a commemorative to make it easier to identify those who attended or served.
Stogieman Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 Excellent dissertation and examination Dave. Thanks! White Black EK2 was given to many non-medical, non-combattants.... so I wouldn't rule it out.
dond Posted October 21, 2006 Author Posted October 21, 2006 Here is the reverse of the bar for those who are interested.
Guest Rick Research Posted October 26, 2006 Posted October 26, 2006 Ahhhhhh. I wasn't sure from the front, being so minty frsh, if those were original ribbons.But the BACK shows these are silk ribbons, with period hardware.It is indeed a strange combination, but I think it is a NAUGHTY bar, with only the DECORATIONS being worn as "reduced wear," with native "ehhh" stuff dropped to flash the glittery foreign stuff.As a PARTIAL group-- one row being worn, but NOT all this person's awards-- I don't know about identifiable, because of vthe missing items that would have clarified more.But it's
dond Posted October 26, 2006 Author Posted October 26, 2006 Thanks Rick and everyone else. I'm always willing to learn more.
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