An elegant uniform in Liverpool

[Eduardo]

Among the 1860's photographs I have from peruvian presidentss and officers I found this one which is not part of the collection. Would it be a British soldier? The pic was taken in Liverpool and since it came with others of the 60's I would think it is from about the same time.

Eduardo

Edited October 23, 2006 by Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Eduardo,

the photo isn't of sufficient detail to allow positive ID. My initial reaction was Rifle Brigade but the badge to the forage cap appears more like a grenade device (Fusiliers) but this is purely a guess. What I can say is -

In 1855 a black leather 'expense' pouch containing 20 rounds was worn to the right of the waist belt and this was replaced in 1857 by a buff leather one, but not for the Rifles .

in 1856 the tunic was changed from double breasted to single with 9 buttons and the skirts made shorter.

in 1868 soldier's cuffs became pointed with the upper edge outlined in white tracing with a white chevron just below it. This chevron was removed in 1871.

The facing colour for the Rifles was black but the cuffs are obviously not that. It would appear that the photo was taken between 1856 and 1871.

Stuart

Edited October 24, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Ulsterman]

Yoemanry? Old R.A.?

[Eduardo]

Thank you Stuart and Ulsterman for your answers. I will make some enlargements of the head, the chest and belt area to see if that helps.

Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Eduardo,

that's certainly a grenade badge. Got to go out and bring in the hay (literally) so will check further when I'm back.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Eduardo,

is it possible to magnify the badge even more as that will give us the regiment I am sure. According to the 1874 Dress Regulations the 5th and 104th Fusiliers forage caps had a black silk oak-leaf band, the others being "Royal" had red cloth bands except the 21st (Royal Scots) who had a diced band.

Therefore, if this holds true for 1871 then we have either the 5th or 104th Fusiliers. The 5th had Gosling Green facings and the 104th blue but I guess there is no way of telling that from the photo. A gosling, a young goose, arrives into the world as a fluffy yellow object and as it matures it changes to a greenish hue, "like the colour of moss".

However, the device on the ball of the grenade device is the key.

Stuart

Edited October 25, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Eduardo]

Thanks Stuart. Your explanation of the details helps very much already. I have enlarged the granade as much as I can.

Eduardo

[Djedj]

Wouldn't he be from a volunteer unit ?

His beard and haircut don't look much like 1860s Army...

There's a list of units serving / period / county on regiments.org :

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/lists/mvcxeng.htm

PLENTY of units in Lancashire by that era...

Jerome

[Eduardo]

Thank you Jerome for the two posts in both my pictures. I am at the university right now in a break but will be back home pretty soon and will send a proper answer.

Eduardo

Edited October 25, 2006 by Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

He could, of course, belong to a volunteer or militia unit but I haven't found a cap badge that has a fused grenade for any such unit of the period.

And, Jerome, I would agree with your statement that he looks rather unlike a regular soldier except that I have a photograph of a group of the Rifle Brigade into which he would slot very well indeed.

The device on the ball of the grenade did not magnify well enough to enable even a guess as to which unit so, unfortunately, I'll have to leave it there.

Stuart

[peter monahan]

Did anyone notice that his sleeves don't match? Does this mean something or nothing?

As to the beard, I was looking at some lovely shots of British hussars from the 1860's and several members of yeomanry units are bearded, with the captions suggesting that this was common/the norm.

Peter

PS I'll find the shots and put in the link - it's in another forum of GMIC!

[Stuart Bates]

The single chevron to the right cuff could be a Good Conduct badge but these were introduced in 1833. White chevrons to each cuff were introduced in 1868 and removed in 1871. Confusing isn't it. Will try to track this down when I get back.

Stuart

[peter monahan]

The single chevron to the right cuff could be a Good Conduct badge but these were introduced in 1833.

Ah! Thank you, Stuart. I've long forgotten what very little I knew about 19thC British uniforms - my interest for that period was the Indian Army.

The site I mentioned for bearded horsemen is: www.hussards-photos.com

If you click on "Bretagne" and scroll down to "yeomanry" there's a shot of a Royal Gloucestershire Yeo with a very nice bush and two others, under "Lost..." with magnificant facial hair.

For what it's worth, Eduardo!

Peter

[Stuart Bates]

Correction: the good conduct chevron was introduced in 1836 and I have many photographs of it's use in the Crimean War.

As to the chevrons worn on both cuffs (1868-1871) I have no photographic evidence or illustrations so I do not know what form good conduct badges took during this period. Therefore, I suggest that the chevron in the photograph is, indeed, a good conduct one.

Stuart

[Djedj]

Bonjour,

Peter the Yeomanry units were volunteer units indeed, hence it's quite normal for them to keep their civilian haircuts and facial hair for their odd week of training and camplife.

The regulations you're referring to concern the moustaches, made mandatory in the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars for instance.

Yeomanry in Lancashire consisted in the Duke of Lancaster's Hussars (his uniform doesn't seem to match with what I've seen), and the Lancashire Yeomanry (white laced uniforms, and a Rose of Lancaster as a symbol).

Soldiers coming back from a campaign were to my knowledge allowed to retain their beards for quite a while - but they often seem to sport a much fuller beard, and they usually had campaign medals.

Actually could he belong to some Volunteer Artillery / Engineers unit ?

The grenade was also a symbol of Artillery to the best of my knowledge.

And there was no lack of them in the area of Liverpool !

In any case it's not gonna be easy to make him out !

Cheers,

Jerome

[Stuart Bates]

Some Artillery and Engineer Volunteer units did indeed wear grenade badges but the spread of the flames is much narrower than that in Eduardo's photograph.

I would go one further, Jerome, and say that we won't crack this one without knowing the device on the ball of the grenade. Pity there is no ID to the back of the photo.

Stuart

Edited October 26, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[peter monahan]

Jerome

I was not suggesting that this photo showed a horseman, only that he might be a volunteer. I was aware of the "bearded return" but, as you say, no medals. A puzzle!

BTW, apologies for not identifying you when I posted the address of your site. A wonderful site!

Peter

[Michael Johnson]

Well, here's what a 104th grenade looks like (copy or no)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/BENGAL-FUSILIERS-104TH-...1QQcmdZViewItem

And here's the Northumberland Fusiliers

http://www.arbeia.demon.co.uk/srs/collect/...s/nmbr/nmbr.htm

I'd go with the 104th, as the flames seem lower, plus the badge does not appear to be voided.

The location of the units in that period might decide the issue.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Michael Johnson

[Djedj]

Jerome

I was not suggesting that this photo showed a horseman, only that he might be a volunteer. I was aware of the "bearded return" but, as you say, no medals. A puzzle!

BTW, apologies for not identifying you when I posted the address of your site. A wonderful site!

Peter

Bonsoir Peter,

I was just thinking that the casual reader may not know what exactly Yeomanry was.

Thanks for your kind words !

Jerome

[Stuart Bates]

According to Kipling & King, Glengarry Badges 1871-1881 the 5th and 104th badges (#425) and #581) are identical with the 104 on the ball also being in cut-out form. Pity as the 5 in cut-out or voided form may have stood out in the photo.

Carman has two versions for the 5th, the first 2.9" high and the second 3.1" high 'having the flames bunched into a more upright shape'. The 104th looks identical to the first version of the 5th but is 2.75" high.

The 1st Batttalion/5th Regiment was in England 1860-1866 and again in 1880.

The 2nd Battalion/5th Regiment was in England 1857, 1867, 1875 and Ireland in 1871.

The 104th was in England in 1871-1877 and Ireland in 1877-1880.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

A vey interesting photo indeed and hard to identify, but this particuler type of head-dress would not have had either of the two "glengarry" badges worn with it as shown in the two previous posts.

The 5th Foot(Northumberland Fusiliers) other ranks wore a plain grenade with a nine pointed flame from 1840 - 1855, but from 1855 through to 1857 they adopted a flaming grenade mounted with St.George and the Dragon, but below that was a seperate brass numeral '5'.

I think you'll find that throughout this particular period mid-1850's through to 1871, all infantry units were identified by the wearing of numerals on this form of head-dress, even those units still in the service of the East India Company.

From 1857-1873 the numeral '5' was omitted and a die stamped grenade was worn, very similar to that worn from 1855-57, but whether or not other Fusilier units ditched the numerals I couldn't honestly say.

What's unusual about this photo is the shell jacket being worn from the 1850's through to the 1860's, which looks darker than scarlet. If it is a Volunteer Artillery unit then it would only date from around 1860, if dated before 1860 it would have to be either Regular or Militia artillery.

Graham.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Graham Stewart

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Graham,

you are mostly correct in your statements on forage cap badges, my assumption regarding the Glengarry badges was wrong.

The 1846 Dress Regs specify the 5th as having a forage cap with a red band and an embroidered grenade containing St George and the Dragon to the ball.

The 1857 Dress Regs specify the 5th as having a forage cap with a black band and the embroidered grenade containing St George and the Dragon to the ball with the number of the regiment embroidered in gold beneath the grenade and not in brass.

The 1874 Dress Regs have the 5th with a black band and embroidered grenade as above but still with the regimental number embroidered underneath.

Other fusilier regiments conformed to the 5th as regards the regimental number.

Shell jackets of an authorised pattern were approved in 1829 and from 1848 they were ordered for undress use. In 1870 the frock, a skirted undress garment, replaced the shell jacket for both home and foreign service.

Volunteer Artillery, as discussed in another topic, had silver lace, Regulars had gold and Militia silver changing to gold according to the 1891 Dress Regs.

Stuart

BTW: Where did you get the information on the nine pointed grenade 1840-1855, Graham?

Edited October 28, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

From 1857-1873 the numeral '5' was omitted and a die stamped grenade was worn, very similar to that worn from 1855-57

Graham,

forgot to ask where you got the information on the die stamped badge as the one in the photo doesn't look to be an embroidered one, but this flies in the face of the Dress Regs.

Stuart

Edited October 28, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Eduardo]

Graham and Stuart,

You realy amase me with your knowledge. As I mentioned, those two Carte de Visite are not part of my collection. They came with CDV of Peruvian oficers and presidents I have, so if someone wants to change them maybe for WWI postcards I will be glad to do it.

Eduardo

PS. Although too far from the interest of this forum, if you want to see my presidents, oficers and heroes, have a look here.

http://www.personajesperu.blogspot.com/

http://www.otrospersonajes.blogspot.com/

Edited October 28, 2006 by Eduardo

[Stuart Bates]

Eduardo,

some really good photos in your collection. I know of a book publisher who has a collection of 25,000+ photos which I would love to peruse.

If you can get hold of the magazine Military Trader November issue check out Peter Suciu's and my article on the British Foreign Service Helmet it has a terrific photo of 3 Gloucestershire soldiers which we obtained from the Gloucestershire Museum. I might as well add it here although we are going off topic.

Your topic has elicited much interest and I wonder how much further we can go, but I thought that many postings ago.

Stuart

Photo courtesy Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum