Soviet Aleksandr Pavlovich Burdin

[Riley1965]

Andrey,

I have looked at your documents with an open mind. I also take into consideration the Knowledge and experience of Ed & Dave. I'm just not buying your story, this time. As I said before, I do have a respect for your knowledge and experience and have enjoyed many of your posts. But, NOT this time!!! THE BODY OF THIS POST WAS EDITED BY CLUB STAFF!!

Here's to a peaceful post,

Doc

Edited November 8, 2006 by Riley1965

[Mondvor]

I'm sorry, I didn't get this passage at all. Maybe because of my non-perfect English

[Ed_Haynes]

Gentlemen, gentlemen . . . ,

We are, I hope, all engaged in an ongoing process of learning here. While some of us -- folks both on and off the list -- know things, no one knows everything. To pretend to that status would be the height of pomposity and arrogance. While I might apply that condemnation to some denizens of other lists, that characterization doesn't work in this community, as far as I am concerned.

What we need to do is to find ways to agree or disagree (better: discuss) based on evidence -- not ex cathedra crudely stated opinions -- and weigh that evidence against the constant realization that all of us are engaged in ongoing learning founded on research. Yes, when someone tells me "I know this is so because I say so, now shut up", I do want to reach for my AK-47, but logical and rational discourse is uaually a better approach and requires much less clean-up later on.

We do also need to remember -- and this has come up on other threads -- that not all of us use English (the default language of this forum) as a "mother tongue" and, while I am immensely impressed with the language skills of all our forum members (better than I could manage in most other languages in which I stumble along), one thing that frequently gets lost out of one's maternal tongue of the tone of civility that ought to populate our discussions. Without any criticism directed to anyone, please cut all our forum mates some slack. Nevertheless, I think all should think (and rethink) their words and realize that we are, as the omnipresent heading title says, "gentlemen".

We are engaged in a collective struggle toward knowledge, not in "counting coup" against one another. Please.

Please play nicely, children,

Ed

Edited November 8, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Riley1965]

As for my vocabulary, my Father taught me that one does not need to use profanity to express one's outrage or irritability with another. Therefore, my carefully chosen gentleman's words...which I know were understood.

With an open mind I ask:

Andrey,

Please point out and describe the problem(s) with the seal(s). I await your response.

Doc

Edited November 8, 2006 by Riley1965

[Stogieman]

Gentlemen.... let's take a step back from the rhetoric please.

[Riley1965]

I see now that my post has been edited by someone. My words were not profane. I am owed an explanation!!! If my freedom of non-profane speech is to be usurped there had better be a GOOD explanation!!! The words I used were that of a gentleman, I DID NOT Curse!!

Doc

Edited November 8, 2006 by Riley1965

[Stogieman]

You've been sent a PM regarding your language and regarding your rhetoric. I now suggest publicly you take a step away from the table.

[Guest Rick Research]

Insulting is not acceptable, Doc!

"No one gave any comments to that. Why? No one is interested to look for a truth?"

Well, it is 9 PM and I'm just online for the first time today.

I had never NOTICED the asterisk/snowflake rather than star under the Supreme Soviet seal before, and consider that to be a very interesting point-- and thank you for bringing that up.

I do not have very many Orders Books with photos, and only TWO with SS seals rather than military unit ones.

1939:

[attachmentid=60103]

= aggggggggggggggggh (this is the Grebennik group posted here)

and 1966:

[attachmentid=60104]

= DOUBLE aaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggggggggghhh

But at least now you can see why I didn't notice, since BOTH my only TWO are not great imprints!

[NavyFCO]

Everyone, everyone....

I have a vested interest in this group because of the fact that I bought it, researched it and sold it orignally. Therefore, I would say that I am biased towards it. However, Andrew does bring up a good point about the asterisk, which I had not noticed before and which is a reasonable point at which to pick at to discern if the photo and/or stamp is real or not.

I personally found the discussion to be very educational, and I thank Andrew for that (thanks.)

However, before we go any further, let's just all take a step back, bring it down a notch and take it easy.

Ed has requested the personnel file on the person, so we'll see if that comes back and if it comes back with a photo.

If the photo is his, then we can further investigate the stamp and I believe that might make for a good thread by itself.

If it's not his, then I'll happily take the award back from Ed for a full refund if he should want to part with it. I definately look forward to when the research comes in!

Simple as that.

I think we can all put away our chains/pick axes/pitchforks and torches and take a break on this thread for a while. Let's learn what we can, but not at the expense of anyone's reputation or relationships between collectors.

Thanks for reading.

Dave

[Riley1965]

I regret that I played a part in the partisan rhetoric of this thread. In the future I'll try to make sure that it doesn't come out publicly on the forum. I'll keep it to myself or share privately. I'll try to make sure that I stick to the meat of the thread. I still believe Andrey's "evidence" not convincing. I look forward to seeing what the research shows. If wrong I'll conceed to Andrey's point of view. Until then I'm not convinced.

Doc

[Gerd Becker]

Lavochkin's 54 is his Hero of Socialist Labor medal. Picture taken in a museum through the glass, sorry for the reflection

aaahhhhh, now i got it finally. I wondered, why he got HSL Nr. 33 much later than HSL Nr. 54, but the HSL Nr. 33 is a second award of course

[Nota_Bene]

Gentlemen,

If I may be allowed to add my two kopeks to this discussion. I do not believe this photo is original to the document in question for several reasons:

- the ink stamp is quite crude, especially the Soviet crest, but also the letetrs (visible on a more detailed section of the stamp);

- this ink color was not available in the SU in the 1960s, but you can find an ink pad with color like this in any Staples

- the signature is not original either, because the style is just over the top for 1967.

I might also add that the photo itself is apparently printed on glossy paper, which was not usually used for documents, but this is circumstancial evidence.

Mondvor, nice research!!!

Alexei

[GREAKLY]

Gentelmen,

And now my 5 kopeks. I tend to believe that the photo is legit, because I agree with Dave's loigc. Without having the research done there was no way the faker would have known guy's age. Given that 1967 was the 50-th anniversary of the revolution year the picture of an old dude (BTW, as a many of you know A LOT of old dueds got various medals that and the next (1968) year) would have been a more logical choice. But given the price of the medal, all the in-depth "material" research (snowflakes, glossy picture, etc.) is a bit ... TOO in-depth.

In Russia we have a good proverb: "Don't use a cannon to hunt sparrows". If this was a HSU, Glory cavalier or anything that's worth over a few hundred $$$ than such approach would be appropriate. But a $40 medal??? It's not worth to fake the picture. Even if German collectors don't like it that way, there are still plenty of other people around. And even if someone wanted to add the picture there was no way to figure out the appropriate age.

What I do believe though is that the seal might be fake. I mean, some idiot-dealer got perfectly original booklet but decided to add the seal to make the picture look more "offical". That would not require any research or investment (many dealers have the PSS seals handy :-). Also given the age and appearance of the guy the dealer could have simply thought the picture was bad in the first place and wanted to "officialize" it.

As to why this youngster got the medal (aside from what the citation says), there is also a logical explanation. 1967 was the year of huge war game (read Suvurov "The liberator"), after which many medals were issued. As you all know Soviet planning system, there would be a certain number of awards pre-assigned to each unit. Ryazan VDV College is certainly an elite place (ask Paul Schmitt :-), so they must have gotten a few of those. And it would be "politically appropriate" (love that Soviet newspeak :-) to give one or two "small" (like MM) medals to the best cadets. So, here comes our guy. 22 jumps after 2-nd year in "Uchilische" that's a pretty good score. But I also wouldn't be surprised if he had family members in high places :-)

Gregory

[Ed_Haynes]

A quest for further research results (via Alexei) have come up empty. Alexei feels the photo, stamp, and signature are not good.

[NavyFCO]

A quest for further research results (via Alexei) have come up empty. Alexei feels the photo, stamp, and signature are not good.

And I still think they are good....for what that's worth...

Dave

Edited November 11, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Ed_Haynes]

And I still think they are good....for what that's worth...

Dave

I think the jury is still out, Dave, though the balance of the voting shifts. And I am not at all unhappy to host this one in my collection!