An interesting Pair of 1870 Crosses

[Stogieman]

I had this pair briefly...... I sent them back to the seller who was (and still is) one of Germany's pre-emminent Mecklenburg Collectors. He was most insulted by my disbelief that the Meck Kreuz was not so good..... curious if anyone else has an 1870 Meck. FFK2 to show....... It's never sat well that I was never really sure if this was good or bad.... a gut call, some help from a friend in Germany and back they went.....

[Stogieman]

the dates just seemed not crisp enough....... the detail not quite what I liked to see..... but notice the wear pattern on the FFK2.... all worn on the left arm like it was rubbing against something hanging next to it.

[Stogieman]

The reverse of the pair...... sorry for the huge photos, but I really wanted people to see the details!

[Stogieman]

This thread will drive my co-moderator insane! He HATES having to scroll back and forth to see pictures!!

[Steve K.]

AHHHHHHH!!! What a huge photo you posted ....I, too, hate to scroll sideways.....(but I had the liberty today to search through the archives and found some good stuff!!)

Anyway, here is a mounted 1870 FF2 from today's update, no EK on the bar but still nice to see an early Mecklenburger - in for 1866 out before 1897 -- nice 15yr long service that is rarely seen!!

Details on this FF are much better!!!

Steve

(Photos courtesy of Detlev Niemann)

[Stogieman]

I missed that bar by (literally) 3 seconds. It really wanted to come to my house. Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh.

[Paul R]

Most colorful 1870 bar I have seen!

[Stogieman]

It's also an excellent "case study" in bars of the period. Not the minimist cloth backing, the threads and the lack of the overall backing material we're so used to for WW1 and later bars.

[David Gregory]

I missed that bar by (literally) 3 seconds. It really wanted to come to my house. Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhh.

Ditto

[joe campbell]

at the risk of seeming mercenary,

what would be the GENERAL price range

for a bar like this???

i DON'T mean to be rude,

i just have NO IDEA.

a bashful thanks!

joe

[Schießplatzmeister]

at the risk of seeming mercenary,

what would be the GENERAL price range

for a bar like this???

i DON'T mean to be rude,

i just have NO IDEA.

a bashful thanks!

joe

Hello:

The seller in Germany had the group listed for US$458.00.

Schie?platzmeister

[HeikoGrusdat]

HeHe... I missed this bar for some seconds, too.... I think it has been offered very cheap for a bar like this, 1870 Mecklenburg bars are not often for sale!!!

[Stogieman]

....... and IMO, the bar was listed for the value of the 1870 FFK2 alone. The Mecklenberg LSC-15 is at least another $150 USD plus. If this bar had been offered at $600 I would not have blinked when laying my money down......

[joe campbell]

with the above info in mind - and many thanks!! -

i would have been quite happy to have that for

that price.

someone got an excellent deal!

to me, finding rarity, beauty and

an excellent price is the TRIPLE CROWN!

kind of like finding a garage-kept '64

Mercedes with 62,000 miles!

beautiful bar!

joe

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Rick, I agree with you on this EKII being suspect. I'm sure you'll recognize crispiness will be lacking when the material under the paint has degraded to some extent. I don't see that in this piece but have often in the Franco crosses.

[joe campbell]

was it the M-S cross you were concerned about or the EK 2?

it looks to me like the EK 2 is quite possibly one of the 1895 reissues,

but i don't have major issues with it. JMHO...

thanks,

joe

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

The '95 reissues I've seen are very nice and crisp. It's the original crosses that I've seen that display degradation under the paint.

[Schießplatzmeister]

[attachmentid=26036]

Hello everyone:

Here is a Mecklenburg-Schwerin Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2nd Class for 1870. I believe that it is genuine. It is well detailed and rather thick compared to the 1914 types that I have seen.

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

[Schießplatzmeister]

[attachmentid=26037]

And, here is the reverse.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, very nice.

[Schießplatzmeister]

[attachmentid=26038]

Finally, here is a view of the piece and the non-combat ribbon. It looks much better in hand than in my poor quality scans. The piece was made from a single casting and the edges were ground to finish it.

I have seen a LOT of copies of these pieces with various dates (and no date) come out of Germany in the past few years. Genuine pieces are not that common as Mecklenberg was a rather small Grand Duchy.

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

[Stogieman]

Schie?platzmeister, the one I returned was the same way. Very heavy & thick and appeared to be cast in one piece and finished as opposed to stamped. If you look at the wear on the one I sent back, you can see the very evident wear from it swinging/rubbing against the medal next to it for a long time. My problem here is two-fold. While it is entirely possible that cast "wearer's copies" were available this far back, the "softness" of the piece and the lack of distinction to the detail and lettering really put me off the piece.

The same with the EK2, while it is again entirely possible it was an 1895 jubilee piece; it was not the crisp, clean, sharp-edged detail I was looking for in the 2 pieces.

[Stogieman]

Oh yes, a quick question... I cannot tell from these photos. Is your suspension ring applied, or integral to the cross??

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Stogieman:

Thanks for your comments. I agree that you should have returned the pieces that you show as they do not look like period pieces.

My cross has the suspension ring soldered to the top of the cross. Hessenthal and Schreiber state that the crosses were made from gesch?tzbronze (cannon bronze from captured enemy cannon). They do not however state HOW they were made. In my opinion, the originals were cast in one piece as this would be consistant with the technology of the time, and there are crosses from many other German States from this period to show that this was a common practice for making such crosses out of gesch?tzbronze. Perhaps my piece is a forgery, but I do not think this the case (of course I am not impartial-no one thinks that THEIR stuff is ever fake!).

Of course, all of the copies (no matter what age) are also made by casting! So, obtaining genuine pieces is difficult to say the least, with most pieces which are encountered being modern counterfeits.

The mystery continues. Does anyone else have any of these, or any other information?

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello again:

By comparison, the 1914 cross that I have is definately genuine and I believe that it is also cast in one piece with the arm edges being ground and polished to finish it. I simply think that this is how these things were made. Die striking would not be necessary to make these and would add many extra and more expensive steps to the manufacturing process. Hessenthal and Schreiber refer to the 1914 pieces as being made from "gilded cannon metal".

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister