Wild Card Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 (edited) Gentlemen,Some time ago I picked up this medal bar as a ?someday when I learn how? restoration project. My guess is that the missing pieces are - #1 Henry the Lion merit cross, #2 Brunswick long service cross an #5 Brunswick lifesaving medal.My reason for asking for help is simply to ask if you think whether this bar is ?good? or not. While I obviously have my doubts, I must point out that the one redeeming factor is that the ring and ?se to the medal for the green ribbon are sill in place. That?s right, it appears that the medal has just been broken off!So please let me know how you feel about this one; and please do not hold back. As I said before, I do have my doubts.Many thanks,Wild Card Edited November 4, 2006 by Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted November 4, 2006 Author Share Posted November 4, 2006 Reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted November 4, 2006 Author Share Posted November 4, 2006 Detail of "removed medal" ?se Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 #6 seemes to have the ribbon of the Hindenberg Cross to Next-of-Kin with some other medal.]Best,Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Looks good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 #6 seemes to have the ribbon of the Hindenberg Cross to Next-of-Kin with some other medal.]Best,DocHallo Doc, the last ribbon (No. 6) is a Prussian 1870-71 Combatant award ribbon (same model / type used for the 1934 Hindenberg Combatant and Non-Combatants.)However it looks like the 1870-71 Steel Non-combatant medal hanging there but that could be just poor picture quality. Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Kevin,Now it makes sense!! Many Thanks,Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Great bar! How many Brunswick Lifesaving Medals are out there? Anyone have an example on a bar?I'm not too familiar with the Brunswick LS awards. They were given out only for a very short time in the 1880s, right? So this would be a long-serving NCO, who ultimately got a PKO4, after his retirement? (And died before 1897.) Probably not an officer, as he would have had at least a RAO4, after 25 yrs of service.BTW, why no pure Brunswick precedence? Why the lifesaving medal at #5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I like it too. That must be the only Lifesaving-Medal, i have ever seen mounted... Or not, in this case Nice bar though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 WC, I don't see any issues with construction, materials or precedence? Why do you doubt it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 PS: Steel Non-Combattant 1870/71 KDM on Combattant ribbon is legit award.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 The precedence is odd. Why would a Braunschweiger place a Braunschweig long service cross ahead of an Iron Cross and a Prussian Crown Order, but place a Braunschweig lifesaving medal after them? Could the green ribbon be something else from another state? Alternatively, I had the thought that he might have placed the lifesaving medal after the Henry the Lion, long service and Iron Cross because the lifesaving medal is a civil award, and priority was being given to military awards, but that wouldn't explain the KDM 1870/71 coming last.webr55, Braunschweig long service crosses existed from 1833 to 1886. There was a 25-year cross for officers, a 25-year and a 20-year cross for NCOs and enlisted, a 15-year Schnalle (clasp) for NCOs and enlisted, and from 1836-79, a 10-year Schnalle for NCOs and enlisted. In 1879, the NCO system was revised, with a 21-year silver cross and a 9-year Schnalle. I assume after 1886 they used Prussian DAs.On the question of whether an officer's or NCO's bar, maybe a stupid question, but is there any reason to rule out an RAO2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 webr55, Braunschweig long service crosses existed from 1833 to 1886. There was a 25-year cross for officers, a 25-year and a 20-year cross for NCOs and enlisted, a 15-year Schnalle (clasp) for NCOs and enlisted, and from 1836-79, a 10-year Schnalle for NCOs and enlisted. In 1879, the NCO system was revised, with a 21-year silver cross and a 9-year Schnalle. I assume after 1886 they used Prussian DAs.Thanks, I mixed things up. I had the new NCO awards in mind, given out from 1879-1886. They indeed switched to the Prussian DAs after that.The precedence is odd. Why would a Braunschweiger place a Braunschweig long service cross ahead of an Iron Cross and a Prussian Crown Order, but place a Braunschweig lifesaving medal after them? My thoughts exactly, but the bar looks quite good. So maybe he thought "crosses first, medals last"? And Brunswick precedence WITHIN these categories?On the question of whether an officer's or NCO's bar, maybe a stupid question, but is there any reason to rule out an RAO2?A Brunswick General? There cannot have been many with a Brunswick DA. But I think he would have had at least a PKO3, wouldn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 PS: Steel Non-Combattant 1870/71 KDM on Combattant ribbon is legit award....Hallo Stogie I knew about Non-Com awards being on Combatant ribbon, my reference was to the quality of the picture as it was unclear to me if it was a well polished combatant medal or the steel non-com, anyway its a nice looking bar waiting to be dressed!Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 There are so few (99, I believe) Brunswick Lifesaving Medals out there, that I have never seen one mounted.I've always wondered if THIS WW1 wartime ribbon bar is for one of them:[attachmentid=59859]and yes, this one DOES keep me awake nights.Problem is, could just as easily be an NCO's bar as an officer's.I have NO clue what the precedence "should be" since Brunswick (along with Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Oldenburg, both Lippes, the three hyphenated Saxonies, Saxe-Weimar, , both Schwarzburgs, Reuss, and Waldeck) as of 1906-- the last year I have regulations--had NO precedence rules whatsoever. None. ZEEEEEEEEERO.Lifesaving medals were rated very differently by the various federal Imperial states. Saxony put theirs after all Orders although a silver St Henry Medal outranked even Knights 1st Class of their Merit and Albert Orders. W?rttemberg, crazy, mixed up, irrational W?rttemberg slighted theirs by placing it LAST of all their own awards, just ahead of "foreign" stuff.So where WOULD a dementedly rare Brunswick Lifesaving medal GO?Not a clue, me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 A Brunswick General? There cannot have been many with a Brunswick DA. But I think he would have had at least a PKO3, wouldn't he?Just a wild thought.Still, it looks to me like the KO4 is there loose. Maybe there was a KO3. You might be right about "aesthetic" precedence - crosses first, then medals. Otherwise there really is no logic to the mixing of states and the placement of civil and military awards, decorations and long service, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Pale blue might also be something Hannoverian...that's the biggest problem-- once a bar is no longer intact, there is NO way to tell what should have been on there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 (edited) Gentlemen,I would like to thank you all for the interest which you have taken in my plea and the tremendous amount of helpful information that you have contributed. I think that it is only proper that I try to answer the questions that you have posed - that I can.Post #4 & #6. Yes, that is a steel, non combatant?s medal on the combat ribbon; and as pointed out in post #11, although very rare, was done on occasion. Nevertheless, this is one point that did concern me; although the non combatant EK does more or less legitimize it.Post #10. Actually it was the construction that concerned me the most. I have not had enough experience with mounted groups to feel comfortable, beyond a certain point, with detecting fakes. Mainly I was was not familiar with ribbons being folded at the bottom (sort of square, to me) like this.Post #8 & 12. One has to be concerned with the precedence. I agree with the point about a proud Brunswicker; but if that?s okay, why is the lifesaving medal not with the others?Post #16. True, but for what it?s worth, the KO4 came with the bar.Post #17. Yes, a Guelph is obvious; but a long shot; whereas a civil merit medal, is much more likely.If I could go back for a moment, I would like to share something that I came across recently while doing an off line research project for a fellow forum member. In post #12, Dave listed some of the various Brunswick long service decorations. The 21 year cross is generally assumed to have been awarded until 1886; but in reading some fine print, I found that it was, in fact, awarded to police officers until 1918. A little something not generally known that should be kept in mind regarding future identification projects.Thank you all again. I feel much better about my little bar; and the hunt for that ever elusive Brunswick lifesaving medal goes on - at an accelerated pace.Best wishes, Wild Card Edited November 6, 2006 by Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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