Soviet Identification Cavaliers of the Order of Glory

[Gerd Becker]

Dear Gerd,

a truely interesting photograph .

The HSU-Colonel at the left seems to have been an active pilot - fighter pilot ? -, who started his career as a sub-lieutenant (his Glory 3cl) and retired as a colonel somewhere in the 1960s. His Merit-Medal, RS & RB #2 might be long service awards for 10, 15 & 20 years in service. It should be not so difficult to find out his identity .

The "Cavalier" at the right received also a Motherland 3cl (!), which is a rather rare award for GPW-NCOs. Due to his awards, it seems, that he did not promote to an officers rank. I have never read about an NCO, who got a Motherland .

Best regards

Christian

Thanks, Christian.

I might add, the Cavalier on the right has the Border-Guards Medal on his ribbonbar, so he had service in the BG and that may explain his Motherland 3rd class.

To all:

I agree with Ed and Wild Card

best,

Gerd

[Christian Zulus]

I might add, the Cavalier on the right has the Border-Guards Medal on his ribbonbar, so he had service in the BG and that may explain his Motherland 3rd class.

Dear Gerd,

well, as a meritorious NCO in the KGB-Border-Guards a "Medal for Distinguished Military Service, 1cl" would have been more approbriate: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=16601 .

Motherland is usally a decoration for officers only.

But, as a Cavalier of the Order of Glory + a meritorious defender of the Soviet state borders, our comrade might have got his Motherland 3cl in the 1970s, as many others of GPW-heros. Maybe our comrade promoted to an officers-rank and got his Motherland 3cl ?

At least our comrade is a very rare example of an NCO, who is a full Cavalier + got a Motherland 3cl .

Best regards

Christian

Edited January 22, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[NavyFCO]

At least our comrade is a very rare example of an NCO, who is a full Cavalier + got a Motherland 3cl .

Christian:

How do you know that he was an NCO?

Dave

Edited January 22, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Christian Zulus]

Glory-Cavalier + Motherland 3cl

Christian:

How do you know that he was an NCO?

Dave

Dear Dave,

during the GPW our comrade was a NCO - that's clear. Show us one case, where a comrade, who started as a sub-lieutenant at the Red Army Airforce promoted to a full Cavalier .

But I remarked, that our comrade might have promoted to officers rank after the GPW in the KGB-Borders-Guard, as his medal hints to.

The fact in most cases is:

- Glory = NCO

- Motherland = Officer

Here we have a Glory-Cavalier, who also wears a Motherland 3cl - and that's an interesting case, I think.

Best regards

Christian

[NavyFCO]

during the GPW our comrade was a NCO - that's clear. Show us one case, where a comrade, who started as a sub-lieutenant at the Red Army Airforce promoted to a full Cavalier .

I have seen research for a Glory 2nd to a non-NCO... Suppose that person could have also gotten a Glory 1st before being promoted? (Or received the Glory 1st as an officer?) I agree that most were NCOs, but I think there were more than a few exceptions. Perhaps slava1stclass could enlighten us to the few cases? (They'd be good in a book, I think...)

Anyway, I just wondered if you knew for certain that he was an NCO. Perhaps you identified him also? I think I may have too.

Seriously.... What I find even more interesting about his ribbons is his lack of service awards. Even as an NCO, he would still have qualified for the 10 year MM, the 15 year Red Star, etc...... So if he had been commissioned, even as a Border Guard, he would have still qualified for the long service awards. This (I think) is a most odd case where he got out of the military, and may have received the Homeland 3rd as a civilian. Something that isn't supposed to happen, but.......

Dave

[Christian Zulus]

I have seen research for a Glory 2nd to a non-NCO... Suppose that person could have also gotten a Glory 1st before being promoted? (Or received the Glory 1st as an officer?) I agree that most were NCOs, but I think there were more than a few exceptions. Perhaps slava1stclass could enlighten us to the few cases? (They'd be good in a book, I think...)

Anyway, I just wondered if you knew for certain that he was an NCO. Perhaps you identified him also? I think I may have too.

Seriously.... What I find even more interesting about his ribbons is his lack of service awards. Even as an NCO, he would still have qualified for the 10 year MM, the 15 year Red Star, etc...... So if he had been commissioned, even as a Border Guard, he would have still qualified for the long service awards. This (I think) is a most odd case where he got out of the military, and may have received the Homeland 3rd as a civilian. Something that isn't supposed to happen, but.......

Dave

Dear Dave,

many thanks for your contribution .

That's true, the lack of service awards is more than obvious!

Another speculation:

Maybe our Glory-Cavalier worked after the GPW in the economy and on a rather "private" basis for the KGB. That might explain the missing of the service awards and his KGB-Border-Medal + his Motherland 3cl ?

Had been the officer, who got Glory 2cl, in the Soviet Air Force?

It might be possible with catch-up Glories, that an officer gets a Glory - even a Glory 1cl - for a heroic deed, he fullfilled as a NCO or a sub-lieutenant in the GPW .

Do you have evidence about such cases?

Best regards

Christian

P.S.: That's true - "slave1stclass" might help with his expertise .

[slava1stclass]

Glory-Cavalier + Motherland 3cl

Dear Dave,

during the GPW our comrade was a NCO - that's clear. Show us one case, where a comrade, who started as a sub-lieutenant at the Red Army Airforce promoted to a full Cavalier .

Christian

Perhaps slava1stclass could enlighten us to the few cases? (They'd be good in a book, I think...)

Dave

To all:

http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=477 - one example of several such instances. Facts always trump speculation, conjecture and, in select cases, ignorance.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited January 23, 2007 by slava1stclass

[Ferdinand]

Hi Slava,

How are you doing on the identification?

Auke

[Christian Zulus]

Officers & Glories

Dear Mr. "slava1stclass",

many thanks for sharing the link to comrade Drachenko .

One modest question to you: Where can you make out "speculation, conjecture and, in select cases, ignorance" in the discussions in this thread ?

I already described such a "Drachenko-Case" in my posting yesterday:

It might be possible with catch-up Glories, that an officer gets a Glory - even a Glory 1cl - for a heroic deed, he fullfilled as a NCO or a sub-lieutenant in the GPW .

Christian

P.S.: That's true - "slave1stclass" might help with his expertise .

As we can read at the mentioned site http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=477 about comrade Drachenko, he got his Glory 3cl, Glory 2cl and again Glory 2cl (like my comrade Gnitienko ) as a Junior Lieutenant of aviation (мла́дший лейтена́нт авиа́ции). Due to the fact, that Drachenko promoted to a Captain of aviation (капита́н авиа́ции) at the end of the GPW, he received his Glory 1cl in exchange to his 2nd Glory 2cl in 1968 as an more senior officer.

As we can also see at the photograph at the mentioned site http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=477 , which shows comrade Drachenko already as a HSU (so it had been shot after end of october 1944), he had only promoted one step to a Lieutenant of aviation (лейтена́нт авиа́ции). What we can not see at the photograph, is his second Glory 2cl, which he received before his HSU.

I assume - "speculation, conjecture and, in select cases, ignorance" -, that comrade Drachenko received his 3 Glories as a Junior Lieutenant of aviation, which corresponds with the statutes of the "Order of Glory", and promoted a few weeks later - maybe due to his HSU - to the rank of Lieutenant of aviation, what we can see at the photograph.

The fact is, that most of the Junior Lieutenants of aviation in the course of the GPW had not been "professional ecducated" officers, but young men and women coming directly from universities or technical colleges, etc., with a connection to aviation, who were drafted to the Soviet Air Force. That might be the reason, why they - and only Junior Lieutenants of aviation! - were included into the statutes of the "Order of Glory". In the majority of other Airforces at WW II, pilots had also an officer's rank.

Again, many thanks for sharing to us that outstanding example of a Glory-Cavalier + HSU

Are there other cases of officers, who got a full "Glory-Trio" at that website?

Coming back to our - unknown - Cavalier with the Motherland 3cl: He does not look like as pilot, due to his decorations .

Best regards

Christian

[slava1stclass]

Hi Slava,

How are you doing on the identification?

Auke

Auke,

Unfortunately, since images were deleted from this thread (posts # 7 and 11), I'm now unable to offer further assistance in identifying the Full Cavaliers in question.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Ferdinand]

Actually the URL's have changed, but somehow I can't edit my posts anymore. Well, here are # 7, 9 and 11 again:

[slava1stclass]

To narrow it down, I think Mr Post7 is probably an Uzbek, seeing he has the Uzbek Jasorat medal

Jan

To all:

Senior Sergeant Tlyeumurat Utyemuratov. He is not an ethnic Uzbek, but rather an ethnic Karakalpak. Karakalpakstan is an autonomous republic in Uzbekistan. Officially it is called the Republic of Karakalpakstan. It is situated southeast and southwest of the Aral Sea.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited March 7, 2007 by slava1stclass

[Ed_Haynes]

Some full cavaliers.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

Another.

[Ed_Haynes]

Another; no name on reverse.

[Ed_Haynes]

Another, no name.

[Ed_Haynes]

And a final one, early.