PlM Oops

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

[Stogieman]

No oaks....

[VtwinVince]

Wrong ribbon.

[saschaw]

And also wrong cross for sure, sold by someone who has much to do (or actually might be, who knows) our raritaetensammlerclub ...

[Stogieman]

Well, I figured the fact that it was a bad fake as a given.... but we have quite a mismatch, ribbon to cross. The ribbon is clearly the Oaks ribbon, with the extra stripe... but no oaks on the cross.

I'd still like to know where the hell these are all coming from. No-one ever cops to knowing who sells the fakes in the first place, poisoning the collector market forever....

[Riley1965]

Stogieman,

I confronted an Ebay seller for his wording i.e. not stating clearly that the PLM was a copy/fake. Another member contacted him, too. He added our statements to his description.

Doc

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, given that the cross was bad. But I don't think these are poisoning the market. Hopefully everyone now is clear or at least should be on what's right and wrong.

I understand not everyone sees the fakes immediately on the PlMs, I can't tell on the Saxon crosses from the small ebay photos which are right or wrong, or the raos or the crown orders. The fakes look great in small photos, have the correct ribbon, so it's tough.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Brian von Etzel

[Riley1965]

Would someone Please post a picture of a PLM with Oak leaves? I've never seen one nor did I know it was awarded with oak leaves.

Doc

[Stogieman]

Courtesy of Niemann-Hamburg

[Stogieman]

Post WW2 Steinhauer & Luch Set. Very high quality

[Riley1965]

Stogieman,

You just made my day!!! I had never seen the PLM with oak leaves. Many Thanks my friend!!!

Doc

[VtwinVince]

I had an opportunity to buy a cased PLM with Oakleaves set twenty five years ago for 3500.00, a small fortune at that time. Now I'm kicking myself....

[Jacky]

Isn't post WW2 a copy?? (or just to say FAKE?)

I thought that after WW1 PLM's weren't produced anymore, officially....

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Les]

Well, I figured the fact that it was a bad fake as a given.... but we have quite a mismatch, ribbon to cross. The ribbon is clearly the Oaks ribbon, with the extra stripe... but no oaks on the cross.

I'd still like to know where the hell these are all coming from. No-one ever cops to knowing who sells the fakes in the first place, poisoning the collector market forever....

Stogie (Rick)

These first appeared right around 1999/2000, and for a short while, were being offered at a hefty price. Even Detlev had one on his web-site not all that long ago, for something like $6000 and described as a "post war copy."

A fellow forum member knows the person who had these commissioned, and supposedly the dies for this strike were broken and this particular item isn't being made anymore. The same person who had these commissioned, also had a number of TR items reproduced (Knights Cross, oakleaves, German Cross in silver, etc).

I don't know how many of these were made and then sold after the first few were sold off before anyone learned there was a "new" fake on the market.

Obviously, more than a few of these were made. There is probably also some turn over of these items by people who either bought these thinking they were real and on discovery the item wasn't was it was claimed to be, resorted to dumping it on someone else, or...bought the item for speculation/resale on ebay, etc thinking they could make a nice profit.

The "wholesale price" of these was circa $400 a few years ago which isn't that much different from the current market price of a 1950's S&L product. Picking one up, fabricating a story to go with it, and then listing it on ebay with the hopes of getting $1000 or more and doubling your investment (and sometimes more than that) is a big temptation for many.

Les

[Tim Tezer]

...and not only fabricating a story, but in many cases these pieces are being marked with what are supposed to be the maker marks of Wagner or Godet before they're sold. That is when the item crosses the line from being a copy to being a fake - when someone willfully alters it with the intention to deceive a buyer.

Tim