Soviet Red Banner of Labour - reissue pieces?

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

the renowed SU-awards expert and dealer, Prof. Eugene Rabkin, offers at his website a RBL T 2 / Var. 1 s/n. 2.146 for USD 4.450,-: http://www.russianglory.com/soviet_orders.htm . Usually the price tags at Prof. Rabkin's website are rather moderate (quality of the items & groups is very good), but due to the fact, that this special RBL T 2 / Var. 1 should be a reiusse of a RBL T 1 / Var. 2 Prof. Rabkin asks that price:

"Extremely rare replacement of type 1. Excellent condition. Almost impossible to upgrade!!!"

Beside the fact, that USD 4.450,- is the new "top-price" for a RBL T 2 at the market, I am asking, if that piece is for 100 % an replacement or reissue for a RBL T 1?

According to the PMD-"Red Bible" and other sources, we know, that the s/n. of the RBL are overlapping to a big extent:

- T 1 / Var. 2: s/n. 1.196 to 2.748

- T 2 / Var. 1: s/n. 1.098 to 7.655 (the T 2 / Var. 1 in my modest collection has even the s/n. 8.660!)

O.K., the PMD-"Red Bible" notes, that (very) low-numbered T 2 / Var. 1 might be reissue pieces, but how sure is it for Prof. Rabkin's RBL s/n. 2.146 ? I think, that there is a lot of "speculation" in that. BTW: It is hardly possible to research, when the recipient got his RBL.

It is easier with RBL T 3 to judge, if the are replacement awards or not. In my modest collection I have a RBL T 3 / Var. 1 with the s/n. 6.825 - that's for sure a reissue . Igor offers at his website a RBL T 3 / Var. 1 with the s/n. 12.472, which is also a genuine replacement award: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=13728 . Again with an "extra" price tag of USD 740,-, which is quite a sum for a "Jumbo"-RBL.

My question to our experts: Is it possible to judge, if a RBL is an reissue award or not? How justified are the "extra" price tags, besides the fact, that the market will pay the prices?

Best regards

Christian Zulus

P.S.: A RBL T 1 / Var. 2 is offered at Igor's website for USD 27.000,-: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=15943 - Beautiful pice, all documents + extra material. 1994 my dealer offered me a RBL T 1 / Var. 2 for less than USD 2.000,- - I didn't buy the order .

Edited November 9, 2006 by Christian Zulus

[JimZ]

Aside from the fact that some 'collectors' will pay ridiculous prices, I'd say that some pieces are just not targetted at us mere mortal members of the modern day proletariat! I think that some prices just cannot be justified...we can of course all try to put our heads together but never really succeed in applying a formula!

When a common order of the red star sells at 30 dollars....and the same red star (slighly different serial number of course but exact same variation) sells at over $100.....what more is there left to say.... and such discrepencies often be seen.

We have witnessed prices spiral up and sometimes out of control. I sometimes discuss real present day market values with another collector friend of mine ..... and each of us have our own very different values per award. Some months ago, when evaluating a collection of around 650 medals...well more of a big dealers lot owned by someone who had an idea of market values ... it was interesting for us to compare and contrast our sometimes very different values per piece. Funnily enough, in spite of our sometimes very substantial differences on the value of all but the basic medals....our bottom line totals were only $150 away on the whole collection. Moral of the story....there is no real market value.... the value of each and every individual ODM is worth what the highest bidder will pay at any given moment

Still, its interesting to see how long an overpriced order or medal may sit there......some of the dealer sites are indeed full and staying full....but what is the real turnover of existing dealer stocks????

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Jim,

Still, its interesting to see how long an overpriced order or medal may sit there......some of the dealer sites are indeed full and staying full....but what is the real turnover of existing dealer stocks????

they mentioned dealer are selling their stuff and they have a real turnover of their stocks.

Sometime I get the impression, that the proportions in value get out of control. The fact is, that a RBL T 2 sells for the same money as a HSU O.K., the rarity might be the same, but a RBL is an unresearchable labour award and a HSU is an easy researchable valour award. O.K., swines, cattle, chicken, etc. had been important for the SU-economy, but heroic deeds at the battle field in the direct line of fire have another smell

So, if the RBL T 2 achieved now the USD 4 k + region, than the HSU for the same amount of bucks seems too cheap.

Best regards

Christian

[Mondvor]

Christian,

I would not say anything about the price, it is own business of every dealer... I want to put my five cents about reissue subject of this RBL.

Type 1 (or "triangle") was manufactured since 1931. By November 1932 the total number of 3674 orders of Type 1 were produced. About 2000 of them were issued. When Type 2 came to business, all unissued "triangles" were returned from Award Department of Supreme Soviet back to the Mint and destroyed. Instead RBL Type 2 with the same numbers were made.

So technically it is a reissue because this oreder Type 2 was made to replace early Type 1 that have had same serial number.

[rboomsma]

Christian,

I would not say anything about the price, it is own business of every dealer... I want to put my five cents about reissue subject of this RBL.

Type 1 (or "triangle") was manufactured since 1931. By November 1932 the total number of 3674 orders of Type 1 were produced. About 2000 of them were issued. When Type 2 came to business, all unissued "triangles" were returned from Award Department of Supreme Soviet back to the Mint and destroyed. Instead RBL Type 2 with the same numbers were made.

So technically it is a reissue because this oreder Type 2 was made to replace early Type 1 that have had same serial number.

I just wonder why the much higher price because it is a re-issue it still is a type 2 order not a type 1.

Other than it is a lower serial.

[Mondvor]

I just wonder why the much higher price because it is a re-issue it still is a type 2 order not a type 1.

Other than it is a lower serial.

I don't know, I guess this question should be addressed to seller.

I just explained why it is a reissue

[JimZ]

O.K., the rarity might be the same, but a RBL is an unresearchable labour award and a HSU is an easy researchable valour award. O.K., swines, cattle, chicken, etc. had been important for the SU-economy, but heroic deeds at the battle field in the direct line of fire have another smell

I disagree Christian. And I would love to see you saying that to an awardee of say ORB Labour, Labour Glory, or Badge of honour that he stinks of "swines, cattle, chicken"! I think labour took many different forms and was not only restricted to farm yard activity .... and even so, the GPW awards were handed out over a handful of years of very bitter fighting. But that still does not nullify the many more years of collective labour that made the USSR what it was.

Gents please please please.....be biased as you please but do not disrespect these lovely labour awards....and their recipients. Its a matter of respect and nothing more. The USSR was not only made of hero's or soldiers!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Jim,

my remarks about swines & cattle were ment ironically and reflected the situation at the SU-Awards-market .

As I pointed out at another thread, the GPW was won by the Soviet economy and not by the Red Army.

Not the dull and stupid Zhukov, but the engineers & workers, who produced the T 34, Il-2, Yak-3, La-7, etc.

It is only a pity, that labour awards are hardly researchable .

I would prefer a well documented HSL to an HSU for the crossing of the river Dnjepr

Best regards

Christian

I disagree Christian. And I would love to see you saying that to an awardee of say ORB Labour, Labour Glory, or Badge of honour that he stinks of "swines, cattle, chicken"! I think labour took many different forms and was not only restricted to farm yard activity .... and even so, the GPW awards were handed out over a handful of years of very bitter fighting. But that still does not nullify the many more years of collective labour that made the USSR what it was.

Gents please please please.....be biased as you please but do not disrespect these lovely labour awards....and their recipients. Its a matter of respect and nothing more. The USSR was not only made of hero's or soldiers!

Jim

[Mondvor]

Not the dull and stupid Zhukov, but the engineers & workers, who produced the T 34, Il-2, Yak-3, La-7, etc.

And what about regular Soviet soldiers - infantry privates, artillery NCOs and other "unnamed" pawns of this war? How do you define their impact to the victory?

[Ed_Haynes]

And what about regular Soviet soldiers - infantry privates, artillery NCOs and other "unnamed" pawns of this war? How do you define their impact to the victory?

About the same as that of the workers.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrei,

And what about regular Soviet soldiers - infantry privates, artillery NCOs and other "unnamed" pawns of this war? How do you define their impact to the victory?

that is a "hen-or-egg"-question .

But the basics of human existence is the economy, as Karl Marx & Co. tells us .

So I think, that the Soviet Red Army soldiers would have had not the slightest chance against Nazi-Germany without their execellent supply lines, their superiour rifles, guns, tanks, airplanes etc. Never forget: The German technology and economy was - in comparison to the Soviet or US economy - at an very "moderate" level. Their technology was rubbish - and again rubbish, despite the fact, that the Germans had been superior to SU & USA in terms of long-distance rockets, jet-planes and submarines, but the fruits at these fields of productions came too late . Besides of the obvious shortcomings in military technology, the organization of the German economy during WW II was a complete mass. In the late 1940s of the the "Cold War" (1943 - 1991) of USA vs. SU the "new" Germany (with the old Nazis in top positions ) adopted the US economic system and "created" the German "Wirtschaftswunder". With such US-"Wirtschaftswunder" + 30.000 T 34 tanks in 1941 Germany would have won WW II.

The Red Army could bear a Zhukov, but such a complete idot and psychopath like this NCO of the Czarist-Army in a key-function of Soviet-GPW-economy would have lost the war for the Soviet Union.

My humble opinion.

Best regards

Christian

[JimZ]

Christian,

And now it seems to me you don't exactly 'like' Zhukov either. I do not see that you should go so far as to hurl abuse at him in such impolite manner. Lots of people I do not like in history and for a great many number of reasons too!!! But I would never any of them names....no matter how deserving they may be!!

So why you feel you are in a position to call Zhukhov a psychopath and a complete idiotic NCO of the Czarist army is beyond my comprehension. After all, you might know of Adolf Hitler from Branau (Austria), a corporal from the first world war did not fare much better when he dragged someone else's country (Germany), his own and the rest of the world into yet another world war.... I would never go so far as to call him a single name no matter how worthy he may be.... and will remain objective and polite at the mention of his name.

I think that sometimes it would be good for you to get off your pedestal and try to respond to threads objectively and politely! I am sorry if your tone bothers me but I like to think of all of us here as gentlemen and think that we should behave as such! Although I can sometimes agree with you on some things, I do not necessarily agree with the way you chose to express yourself!!

My humble opinion and regards!

Jim

[order_of_victory]

Christian,

Geting back slightly more on topic in my Humble opinion considoring that a Type 1 Triangle costs 24,000usd

www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=15943

I cosidor the price reasonable for an intresting medal

But please note that Order of the Red Banner of Labour are my soft spot

Order of Victory

Edited November 11, 2006 by order_of_victory

[Ed_Haynes]

I'd agree totally with you, OoV. Had I the cash available, it'd be gone now!

[order_of_victory]

I'd agree totally with you, OoV. Had I the cash available, it'd be gone now!

Thanks Ed Glad somebody else like these

Now Collect Russia has that one up for sale I must get my dodgy one to PMD just to make sure

Order of Victroy

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, and I am wondering if I could work out a swap including my solo T1V2 (with "Paul Papers").

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8627&st=16

[order_of_victory]

Yes, and I am wondering if I could work out a swap including my solo T1V2 (with "Paul Papers").

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=8627&st=16

Once again very nice Ed

I dont think Collect Russia does straight swaps

But if you want I will swap with you .....................

Order of Victory

Edited November 11, 2006 by order_of_victory

[Christian Zulus]

Confused

Dear Jim,

I am a little bit irritated about your reply , because I just wanted to support your argumentation about the value of the Soviet working force vs. military.

I just took Zhukov as a well (?) known example of an general, whose career had been spotted with a lot of shortcomings and wanted to point out, that such a person in the Soviet economy would have caused a much bigger mess, than at the front of the GPW.

Sorry, if you felt, that my descreption of Zhukov seemed impolite, but these are prooved historic facts. If you don't believe me, than please read the book of US-Col. (ret.) David Glantz "Zhukov's Greated Defeat" (about the Operation Mars in 1942) http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/glazhu.html and the brilliant novel of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn he published in 1995 about Marshal Zhukov in "Nowyi mir" 5/1995 under the title "Na Krajach", which has been published in german language under the title "Ein Heldenleben" ("A Hero's Life") in 1996 http://www.reller-rezensionen.de/belletris...heldenleben.htm .

O.K., you might think, that my opinion is wrong, but Col. Glantz is THE expert about Soviet Army & the history of GPW and Mr. Solzhenitsyn is at least a meritorious officer of the GPW (ORB, etc.) AND the winner of the Nobel Prize in literature .

I think, that this thread and this section of GMIC is NOT the right place to discuss the military history of famous Soviet generals - we are here in a more or less phaleristic section of GMIC -, but if you are interested in a "Zhukov-Discussion" I could start a new thread at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showforum=11 - "History of Warfare" - "World War II" .

Coming back to the topic of my thread: For my taste the RBL is one of the finest designs of all Soviet Awards - specially the two screwback types. The RBL is a rather "universal" award, almost as "universal" as the Red Star. The RBL has been always - from the beginnings in the 1920s (!) - an rather important decoration.

Best regards

Christian

Christian,

And now it seems to me you don't exactly 'like' Zhukov either. I do not see that you should go so far as to hurl abuse at him in such impolite manner. Lots of people I do not like in history and for a great many number of reasons too!!! But I would never any of them names....no matter how deserving they may be!!

So why you feel you are in a position to call Zhukhov a psychopath and a complete idiotic NCO of the Czarist army is beyond my comprehension. After all, you might know of Adolf Hitler from Branau (Austria), a corporal from the first world war did not fare much better when he dragged someone else's country (Germany), his own and the rest of the world into yet another world war.... I would never go so far as to call him a single name no matter how worthy he may be.... and will remain objective and polite at the mention of his name.

I think that sometimes it would be good for you to get off your pedestal and try to respond to threads objectively and politely! I am sorry if your tone bothers me but I like to think of all of us here as gentlemen and think that we should behave as such! Although I can sometimes agree with you on some things, I do not necessarily agree with the way you chose to express yourself!!

My humble opinion and regards!

Jim

[JimZ]

Christian - "Dull and stupid" and "such a complete idot and psychopath" is both impolite and unappropriate not withstanding what any expert says... and I am sure none chose those exact words. Fact is, it is not what you say ..... but how you say it that comes out very wrong and arrogant sometimes! That is why i express my own irritation. For that and no other reason! But lets drop this.

As for discussing Zhukov, I am afraid I regret to express much interest in his military achievements or failings. Now if I owned his ODMs..... I'd really be all over the guy!!

More importantly.... for this thread:

Anyone got more pics of these early labour beauties in their collections? Lets be honest, they are by far not orders we usually come across on a daily basis....... so please show more.

Regards,

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Jim,

you are right, my two mentioned authors do NOT use that language , only the former GRU-officer, who publishes under the name "Suvorov", uses in his (large) book about life & career of Zhukov such words. But the book had been published in german language and had not been translated into English, so I have not mentioned it .

Guess, if you really would own all of Zhukov's ODMs (inkl. 2 Victories, Marshall Star, 4x HSU and all documents), what would be the market valule of such group .

Coming back to the RBL.

For my taste the RBL T 2 is one of the most beautiful and homogenous designs among all Soviet Awards, despite the fact, that the T 2 is definitly more "conservative" in design, than the "triangle" T 1. The RBL T 2 is a very typical example of "Socialistic Realism" in all elements and in the special design. In comparison to the RBL T 2 & T 1 the old RBL of the Russian Republic looks rather dull - the RBL of the other Soviet Republics were much more intersting and fancier in design. There is also a lot of excellent handcrafting in the RBL T 2 and I think, that is the reason, why all T 2 are personally signed by the maker. Mine - T 2 / Var. 1 s/n. 8.660 - has a cyrillc "b" as a maker's mark.

Igor offers now a nice T 2 / Var. 1 (plus another T 4 RBL + 2 OK) for USD 5.300,-: http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=15964

I seems, that the items won't get cheaper anymore .

Best regards

Christian

Christian - "Dull and stupid" and "such a complete idot and psychopath" is both impolite and unappropriate not withstanding what any expert says... and I am sure none chose those exact words. Fact is, it is not what you say ..... but how you say it that comes out very wrong and arrogant sometimes! That is why i express my own irritation. For that and no other reason! But lets drop this.

As for discussing Zhukov, I am afraid I regret to express much interest in his military achievements or failings. Now if I owned his ODMs..... I'd really be all over the guy!!

More importantly.... for this thread:

Anyone got more pics of these early labour beauties in their collections? Lets be honest, they are by far not orders we usually come across on a daily basis....... so please show more.

Regards,

Jim