jaba1914 Posted December 13, 2006 Author Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) I am sure that the bavarian badge is an original. I bought it from a dealer who i realy trust and i have a confirmation.I also show more badges whit the same flaw. Edited December 13, 2006 by jaba1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerd Becker Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Welcome to the forum, jaba1914 Great badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) no comment Edited December 15, 2006 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) Back around 1981/82, a very naughty man who went by the name of Geoff Hurst and a couple of elderly diecutters in the Clerkenwell district of London produced some beautiful dies and tools for Imperial rayback flight badges... Forgers often incorporated tiny marks or flaws in order that they and their friends be able to quickly identify their work. It's rather like the punctuation marks on the fake Conrath documents sold to George Petersen years ago by a couple of Hamburg-based dealers, one of whom operates an authentication service, despite being unable, it seems, to provide any evidence that he is formally recognised as an expert according to relevant German law. And that's all I will say. PK Edited December 13, 2006 by PKeating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 tiny marks...in order that they and their friends be able to quickly identify their work.... PKLike all the naysayers using the whistling icon? Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Well, the internet has made it easier for collectors to exchange information, thereby making it harder for crooks to swindle them, and a lot of high end fakes have been detected in the past few years. Back in the day, before the internet exposed the majority of collectors to the tiny minority of awkward types who took a "forensic" approach to their hobby, people didn't ask so many questions. In those days, for instance, if a Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross 1939 was made of three pieces and not obviously by Souval, it was accepted as genuine. 99% of people then would not have been able to tick off the authorised manufacturers of the KC on their fingers as they can nowadays. Of course, fakers are still trying it on, one of the new strategies involving hitherto unknown variants about which experts from nowhere compose convincing articles, illustrated with photos of said variant supplied by people who swear blind that their ancestors received that very item by special courier whilst lying wounded in the snows beside the Volga. 90% of collectors having a jackdaw or jackass mentality, they lap it up like Kool-Ade because they want to believe it. I see all sorts of things posted on these forums whose origins I recall from a misspent youth but I have largely given up trying to warn people because they don't want to be warned that what they have is a piece of junk. I am banned from at least half the forums on the web for trying to promote truth and reality. Not that I care, mind you. But in the end, what is the point of wasting energy on lost causes? It's a bit like the art forger who fooled the art world with some "Da Vinci" drawings: when he revealed the truth, they treated him like a madman...because they had vested interests in suppressing his truth. Same with a lot of these expensive fakes. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) no comment Edited December 15, 2006 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Dear PKeating:Don't be discouraged! There are a good number of us "sceptics" out there that don't buy all of the hype, because a dealer gives out (sells) certificates of authenticity, or someone declares that they are an expert and writes a book.Human nature being what it is, there will always be an audience for charlitans. Keep speaking the truth as uncomfortable as the feedback may be!My personal maxim is that if one has to explain a great deal about why something is genuine, they are probably trying to convince themselves!Best regards,"SPM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Let me be a little clearer... I don't care for ANY of the Prussian ones with this type of flaw.We are discussing a Bavarian Badge.It's easier for me to concentrate on the piece at hand, not paint with a broad brush... hence my earlier comments.The presence of a flaw in a Prussian badge does not dictate all Bavarian badges with a similar flaw to be fake...The point here, is that when someone made a fake die, mold, tool (insert manufacturing method/equipment of your choice) it was made from an original piece!Bavarian badges are so rare, so few authentic ones around, that I cannot understand people leaping one way or another on any of these. I've handled/owned quite a few Bavarian Badges, maybe even a lot..... my total is six (6).... out of about 500 fakes that I would (classify as such by me) pass on in a heartbeat.I think you need to start on the front and look at some critical detail of the plane, wreath and crown.... and no, I'm not about to publicly state them. Sorry! That's proprietary as the saying goes....I simply don't think there's enough information out there to know for sure yet (strictly with Bavaria)..... I do not think a large enough pool of known originals is available to work with. Or at least that I have personally had physical access to. In the interim, please send me all the ones you don't like, don't want! I'd be happy to add them to my pile of suspects.... ;>)In fact, just to be on the safe side, better ship all suspected aviation badges to me for my personal use and evaluation. I'll let you know if any are good..... or not. I will safely dispose of all suspicious badges at no cost!! ;>)Also. John has a very important point to consider..... I don't think anyone, unless they have iron-clad belief in their own personal ability to discern with 100% confidence, should be buying any aviation badge!!I will stand my ability to do that with Prussian badges against anyone. With Bavarian.... not a chance I'd be comfortable making that decision for anyone, including myself (mostly).... I consult many others on Bavarian. The flip side, I'm not going to shout fake on a Bavarian piece that there simply isn't enough information on. I like an awful lot about the front of this badge.... In the past, the discussions I have watched concerning Bavarian die-flaws the crown well had a different shape........ not the "upside down u" like on this one. Again, I don't think we know enough to be sure in this very specialized arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 PS! Prosper's comments regarding Brit toolmakers is very, very interesting. I wonder if these were actually made earlier?? It seems it was the late 1970's when the big, sudden 'boom' of badges started to filter into the market....???? Or was it more accurately the early 1980's?? I was studying other things at that time and have only interviews with older collectors to go by. The bulk of which always (or at least most frequently) said late 1970's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Stogieman,I'll take some off your hands... Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hallo Rick! Stogieman isn't wrong in referring to the "late 1970s" lore. The first rayback die tryouts were in the late 1970s. I believe a few unbacked badges were struck in various white metals and in silver. The silver was, as far as I know, standard Sterling, which never looks quite like period .800 or even .935 continental alloys. More dies came in the early 1980s, specifically around the time of the Royal Wedding in 1981. They were produced by the same small group of characters who were behind other fakes like the DFCs, DCMs and rare Crimea clasps. That in fact is what got them into serious hot water as it qualified as forgery from the viewpoint of the authorities, as these medals were British Crown items. Not that they ever faced arrest but they were learnt upon. Some of the dies could have left the UK in the interim and fetched up in the Hamburg area and, according to the lore machine, Paris. Geoff Hurst is long dead but I see the names of some of the half-dozen or so involved cropping up here and there from time to time. I can spot the "London Badges" a mile off and can only echo Stogieman's caveat about the extreme rarity of genuine, period Bavarian badges. The Prussian ones are rare enough but Bavarian ones qualify as unicorn droppings. Prussian Marine Pilot Badges are also incredibly rare but you wouldn't think so if you took a tour around the internet or any large militaria show. Same applies to Zeppelin Badges, 1921 Tank Badges and so on. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Share Posted December 14, 2006 I've handled/owned quite a few Bavarian Badges, maybe even a lot..... my total is six (6).... out of about 500 fakes that I would (classify as such by me) pass on in a heartbeat.Post your badges here please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hi Brian, your little snippets of photographs from different angles prove and/or demonstrate nothing. Clearly, if your badge was worthless and fake, you should send it off. Why asking $1,000.00 for a worthless item might be construed as "innappropriate" behavior. Or, are you saying your (fake) badge is worth a $1,000.00 to you???Apart from the different lighting and different angle of the lens, I think it's quite clear that there's two (2) very different items, clearly not from the same die, clearly struck at different depths into the backing plate.Even from the tiny little postage stamp images you have "photo-shopped" together I can come up with four (4) clear differences in the die used for each of these examples. And that's with little effort at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Example of a different Bavarian Badge, original in my opinion?, or not in my opinion?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 OK, which one of these is? why? are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 ... and just to further confuse things, I prefer the "flat-back" P?llath Badges over anything else.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 It's a joke Rick. I wouldn't take 10 bucks for it. Sorry you refuse to see that. The flaws are in the same exact position. If you don't see it, you don't see it, you're entitled to your opinion, And me mine.Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted December 15, 2006 Author Share Posted December 15, 2006 Can we see the back of those badges. I think this is mor important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 I will add reverse photos this evening, if possible. Very busy today/tonight with Holiday Cheer!! Jaba, please post dimensions (in mm.) of your badge. Should be measured from the top of the cross to the center of the wreath/bow, and from the top of the cross to the tips of the bow. Width as well across the middle please. Thanks!!!If you prefer, please feel free to PM me these details. Again, in my experience, there are many factors to be considered. Weight & dimensions are critical. 99.9% of the fake Bavarian badges are significantly smaller than real ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaba1914 Posted December 15, 2006 Author Share Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) I will add reverse photos this evening, if possible. Very busy today/tonight with Holiday Cheer!! Jaba, please post dimensions (in mm.) of your badge. Should be measured from the top of the cross to the center of the wreath/bow, and from the top of the cross to the tips of the bow. Width as well across the middle please. Thanks!!!If you prefer, please feel free to PM me these details. Again, in my experience, there are many factors to be considered. Weight & dimensions are critical. 99.9% of the fake Bavarian badges are significantly smaller than real ones.Hi Stogieman,i don`t realy anderstand what measures you ment. Here the dimensions (in mm) Height over all: 77Width over all: ca. 45Weight: about 28,4g Edited December 15, 2006 by jaba1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Reverse of the pair of Bavarian Pilot Badges: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Now... look very carefully at both badges..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 I like the one on the right. On the left, I question its authenticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) I like the one on the right, too, even `tho there is something in that quadrant where the flaw usually appears. But I like this one, like the one on the right, a little better, mainly because it came from the family...Unfortunately, the grandchildren must have cleaned it with steel wool...Actually, the more I look at this one, it is really quite ugly--back and front. Maybe that's why I traded out of it several years ago!!!!! Edited December 15, 2006 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now