Soviet Question on Long Service medals

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Had a thought... what was the plan in the case of the 10, 15 and 20 year Long Service medals... if one served for say 25, 30, 35 or 40 years? Didn't know if they had a plan for this or what.

Don't know why it hit me but figured I'd ask in the hope that someone else knows.

Thanks,

Dan

[JimZ]

Hi all,

Had a thought... what was the plan in the case of the 10, 15 and 20 year Long Service medals... if one served for say 25, 30, 35 or 40 years? Didn't know if they had a plan for this or what.

Don't know why it hit me but figured I'd ask in the hope that someone else knows.

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan,

Since post war times Orders have always been awarded for long service. Lets face it, not all the much combat was going on after that and yet Orders of Lenin, Orders of the Red Banner and Orders of the Red Star amongst others were still issued in large numbers some of which as long service awards. I reckon there should be some logical progression from long service medal onto orders although this would be largely contingent on a) the number of years of service and b) the rank held by the person in question.

At least this is my understanding of the system. Mebbe some of our research guys have more ammo on this topic......

Jim

[Hauptmann]

Hi Dan,

Since post war times Orders have always been awarded for long service. Lets face it, not all the much combat was going on after that and yet Orders of Lenin, Orders of the Red Banner and Orders of the Red Star amongst others were still issued in large numbers some of which as long service awards. I reckon there should be some logical progression from long service medal onto orders although this would be largely contingent on a) the number of years of service and b) the rank held by the person in question.

At least this is my understanding of the system. Mebbe some of our research guys have more ammo on this topic......

Jim

Hi Jim,

See what you're saying. I guess it struck me when I was re-re-re-re reading the red bible. It was talking about how these were created in order to put a stop to Orders being awarded simply for long service... such things as Red Stars, Red Banners and Lenins... which tended to devalue such awards.

But it seems that there would have been many individuals with careers that went beyond 20 years of service. So either they would at that point have to fall back on higher Orders again for anything over 20 years or there had to be another solution.

No idea why it didn't strike me before this... guess it just had to hit me at the right moment for the old light bulb to come on. Nothing earth shaking but seemed a good topic for discussion if nothing else.

Thanks,

Dna

[NavyFCO]

Here's my theory, and this is merely a theory...

The MM, RS, RB and Lenin were initially bestowed in 1944 as long service awards for 10, 15, 20 and 25 years. So, on 1 January 1957, they stopped awarding them and started awarding Irreproachable Service for 10, 15 and 20 years. So, what happened to 25 years? And beyond?

Good questions.

My thought is this: I think that it was unusual for anyone below the rank of General Major (or perhaps Colonel) to continue on active duty well beyond the 25 year mark. Granted, there were plenty "in reserve" guys who were Lieutenant Colonels and the like for many, many years. I've owned a number of Red Stars for general officers (two of which I posted in the researched awards forum) who received them for "around" 30 years of service. Thus, I believe one can hypothesize that if someone made it to 30 years, and continued on active duty, they received a Red Star. Obviously, the higher the rank, the higher the award - which is the reason for the "birthday" awards of Red Banners and Lenins to the senior marshals and admirals. What I have not seen, however, is an award for 25 years of service, nor have I seen one for service to anyone below a general officer, thus creating the basis for my comment in the first line.

To sum up that rambling... If you stayed 30 years, chances were you were a general officer (they might have had a similar system as did the US that mandated retirement for Captains/Colonels at 30 years of commissioned service) and as a general officer you received a long-service Red Star somewhere around the 32-35 year mark. If you proceeded higher in rank, and beyond the subsquent mandatory retirement dates for lesser ranks, and attained the level of General Colonel, General of the Army, etc., you then started receiving Red Banners and beyond for your service. Of course, there were always exceptions, but I think this might have been a general rule based on the research I've done. Both MONDVOR and GREAKLY might have some other information as they're pretty savvy with this as well.

Dave

[Christophe]

Here's my theory, and this is merely a theory... (...)

If you stayed 30 years, chances were you were a general officer (they might have had a similar system as did the US that mandated retirement for Captains/Colonels at 30 years of commissioned service) (...)

Dave

Dave,

Also waiting for what Alexei and others will say about it, but your "theory" totally makes sense.

I'm just asking myself if there is a mean to check the mandated retirement of superior officers in the USSR... Any known source on this ?

Cheers... and Happy New Year!!!

Ch.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Christophe

[JimZ]

See what you're saying. I guess it struck me when I was re-re-re-re reading the red bible. It was talking about how these were created in order to put a stop to Orders being awarded simply for long service... such things as Red Stars, Red Banners and Lenins... which tended to devalue such awards.

That is just it.... As the awarding of orders for service would devalue the orders in question, they minimised this devaluation for awards for 10, 15 and 20 years for which there was now a series of medals for irreproachable service. Beyond that however Orders would still be bestowed (Red star/Red Banner/Lenin) contingent on the rank and years of service.

Now the extent and the progression of orders beyond the 20 years as Dave suggests is interesting.... when was a red star issued and when a red banner? What rank exactly would call for one order as opposed to another. I am also curious to see if anyone knows of Orders awarded for service were handed out before the 10/15/20 year medals were actually awarded. In simple words... after the service medals were instituted, does anyone know of a 10/15 and red star/redbanner award for example??

Jim

[NavyFCO]

In simple words... after the service medals were instituted, does anyone know of a 10/15 and red star/redbanner award for example??

I assume you're referring to a person having a 3rd and 2nd class Irreproachable Service medal, and then being awarded a Red Star and Red Banner for future years of service. It this is correct, I don't know of any like that nor would I think it even possible - at least receving the Red Star/Red Banner for years of service. Like the general's Red Stars from the 1960s, the one set of research that hasn't yet been packed enroute its new owner is the set to Sherbinin, which has him joining the Red Army in 1935. Thus, when he received his Red Star in 1967, he had 32 years of service. As I recall for the other general, he joined in 1983, and his Red Star fell at about the same time. In the case of Sherbinin, he never received any of the Irreproachable Service medals because he hit 20 years (and thus received his Red Banner) in 1955 (actually in November 1954).

All of the awards I've seen for post-1956 length of service have been "disguised" awarded though - meaning that they were written for the person's good service, rather than purely for legth of time in service. In the case of Sherbinin, he was awarded the Red Star for 32 years of service, being a good officer and doing a good job AND for the 50th anniversary of the Revolution. One award, three things it could have been awarded for. I wonder if he was dissapointed he didn't receive more than just the single award when he possibly qualified for three instead of just the one.

Dave

[JimZ]

That's exactly what I meant. So once the irreproachable service medals came into effect they would apparantly be awarded without fail in 10, 15 and 20 years with orders to follow. One other thing I am not clear about.... did 10/15/20 years service automatically qualify you for these medals or did your service to the armed forces really have to be irreproachable?

Jim

[Hauptmann]

That's exactly what I meant. So once the irreproachable service medals came into effect they would apparantly be awarded without fail in 10, 15 and 20 years with orders to follow. One other thing I am not clear about.... did 10/15/20 years service automatically qualify you for these medals or did your service to the armed forces really have to be irreproachable?

Jim

Hi Jim,

Yet another excellent question. Kinda wondered about that myself. But many thanks on what seem excellent answers on my original question. Glad it got a good discussion going. I'm really enjoying this and hope to learn more before all is said and done.

Thanks!

Dan

[Christian Zulus]

Long Service Medal - 25 years in Service

Gentlemen,

the medal "Veteran of the Armed Forces" of the 1970s was also issued for comrades with 25 years (or more) in service.

As documented in the researched case of captain 1st rank & commodore of the 111th OVR-brigade, Ivan Kandybin http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11948 , this comrade served exactly 25 years in the Soviet Navy, retired from his top position in 1961 and did not receive an Order of Lenin, due to the new regulations. But in the 1970s he got his "Veteran of the Armed Forces Medal".

In the case of high-ranking marshals, generals or admirals anything might have been possible for 25, 30 or 35 years in service (or 60th, 65th, 70th, 75th or 80th birthday): HSU, Lenin, Octoberrevolution, RB or RS.

My theory: We have medals for 10, 15, 20 & 25 years in service for officers and maybe lower ranking generals. The "Nomenklatura" made what they wanted: 2nd Octoberrevolution, several HSUs, etc., etc.

Best regards

Christian