A Once in Your Lifetime ID

[webr55]

A happy new year to all members!

I would like to start 2007 by posting a case that took me a while. I bought this nice Godet lapel bow from Stogie sometime ago:

The ribbons are:

1) RAO4 (judging from the other awards, probably not an AEZ)

2) D70/71

3) Centen 1897

4) Prussian LS (probably LD2 or LD1)

5) Hessian HP4 (Knight 1st or 2nd)

6) probably a Bavarian Crown Order for Civil Merit, Knight

7) Lippe Honor Cross (Knight 1st or 2nd)

8) Italian Crown Order (Knight or Officer)

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

The back.

From the combination, especially with the Bavarian civil order, this should be a civilian who maybe was in some academic position. Un-IDable, you say?

First, I looked through some ranklists for reserve officers. No luck.

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

There was only one way to go (one thing less to do before I die. ):

1734 pages of the Ordensalmanach 1908/09 lay before me.

(BTW, this could never have been done without Paul's digital version of the DOA.)

Some risks had to be taken:

- He might have not had himself listed -> tough luck, but relatively improbable, I think. Someone with so many awards was probably in there.

- He might have died before 1908 -> tough luck!

- He might have got half of his awards after 1908 -> tough luck! (see #5 below)

Edited January 1, 2007 by webr55

[webr55]

My assumptions were:

1) He was a veteran of 70/71, but did not get the EK 1870. Too young for 1866.

2) He was a hardcore Prussian from the precedence, even the lowly 1897 medal is before Hessian and Bavarian orders.

3) In 1908, he must have been in his mid-50s, at least.

4) During WW1, he was either dead already or too old OR not in the right position to get an EK 1914. (Or this was an earlier lapel bow.)

5) So basically, I looked at all 70/71 veterans without an EK. But what about other awards? My central axiom (which can of course be questioned) was that by 1908 at least FIVE awards have to fit. I think it would be improbable if he got half of his awards beyond the age of 55.

[webr55]

What can I say? The whole enterprise took some time.

Here are the results:

I found only six candidates that could not be excluded immediately.

Four were Hessians, so can probably be discounted:

1) Frickhöffer, Dr. Karl, D70/71, HssP4amKr, RAO4, LD1, ZM (a doctor)

2) Imroth, Hermann, D70/71, HssP3, HssP4amKr, RAO3, LD2, ZM (an official (Baurat))

3) Lade, Ernst, D70/71, RAO4, LD2, ZM, ItKr4 (a forester)

4) Schurian, Karl Heinrich, D70/71, HssP4a, RAO4, LD2, ZM (a forester)

There is one possible Prussian forester:

5) Lorenz, Emil, D70/71, RAO4, LD2, ZM, ItKr5

Lorenz was born in Eldena/Mecklenburg in 1847, and was Forstmeister in Wohlau/Silesia. I don't see how he should have got three other non-Prussian awards as a provincial forester. Cannot be totally excluded, however.

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

But I think it is:

6) Ökonomierat Dr. Arthur SCHLEH

He is listed with D70/71, LpDEK4, RAO4, LD2, ZM. Born in Berlin 6.10.1846, living in Münster. An "Ökonomierat" has nothing to do with economics, but is an agricultural official. I think he is the perfect candidate:

- the precedence is right: after his Prussian awards, he first put the higher ones: Lippe (Knight 2nd) came last, the Bavarian Knight (no classes) before it, and the Hessian Philip was probably a Knight 1st.

- academic background

- he was in the proper position to get awards from other states at 60+

- the Bavarian Crown Order would have been quite appropriate for him (the Bavarians have a strong tradition in agriculture), whereas the EK2 1914 for an agricultural official would have been quite unlikely

According to the CV I found in his PhD dissertation, his father was a factory owner. Arthur went to the University of Halle 1869-70, was then called for service in the 70-71 war, and went back to the University of Leipzig afterwards. He got a Dr. in agriculture from there in 1875 with a dissertation about "Über die Bedeutung des Wassers in den Pflanzen und die Regulirung desselben in unsern Culturböden".

He was then a teacher at an agricultural school in Herford and later became the first director of the chamber of agriculture Westfalen-Lippe. He also published books about the agricultural role of pigs (1904), of crows (1904) and others, up until 1920 ? so, according to his publications, he was alive in 1920.

Chris

Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55

[Mike Dwyer]

Wow! Quite a lot of work, but it sounds to me like you've quite likely found your man.

[Riley1965]

I just LOVE these lapel mini's ONE DAY...

Doc

[Paul C]

Chris, Absolutely Wonderfull!! That way a hard strain on the eyes looking through the DOA. I am glad I was able to provide it to you. Although there are almost 1800 pages in the DOA I would like to see a spreadsheet format of it that is searchable. It would be an incredible amount of work but well work it.

[webr55]

Thanks for your comments!

Chris, Absolutely Wonderfull!! That way a hard strain on the eyes looking through the DOA. I am glad I was able to provide it to you. Although there are almost 1800 pages in the DOA I would like to see a spreadsheet format of it that is searchable. It would be an incredible amount of work but well work it.

I was hoping to show that. If we could let an OCR software for Gothic type do its work on the DOA, I think we could ID a lot of so far anonymous groups.

[Guest Rick Research]

Holy Mother of God!!! What an HORRIBLE amount of time to spend on that horrible Martin Luther typeface!

BUT

even though the Lippe-Detmold (OR Schaumburg-Lippe) ribbon is in-between, I don't think that can be the Bavarian Crown Order. That gave lifetime civil knighthood as "Ritter von" just like the Military Max Joseph Order.

What that ribbon most likely is, would be a Greek Order of the Redeemer.

That is the problem with RIBBONS alone. Too many could be MORE THAN ONE THING!

[webr55]

Holy Mother of God!!! What an HORRIBLE amount of time to spend on that horrible Martin Luther typeface!

BUT

even though the Lippe-Detmold (OR Schaumburg-Lippe) ribbon is in-between, I don't think that can be the Bavarian Crown Order. That gave lifetime civil knighthood as "Ritter von" just like the Military Max Joseph Order.

What that ribbon most likely is, would be a Greek Order of the Redeemer.

That is the problem with RIBBONS alone. Too many could be MORE THAN ONE THING!

Well, whatever it is, as long as he got it after the Lippe, or Schaumburg-Lippe (yes, possible too), Dr. Schleh can be my man. I didn't look for specific awards when looking through the - indeed horrible - list of names, as long as he got at least five of his awards by 1908.

BTW, I know that the Bavarian crown order gave knighthood to its recipients, but didn't that apply only to Bavarians?

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, but it was directly comparable in importance to an MMJO and only very senior and very important Bavarians got it, so I can't see an obscure Prussian civil servant with one when a plain old St. Michael would have sufficed.

If there is a list of Bavarian Crown Order knights, I've never seen one. There should be.

But I think that is the wrong thing to be looking for.

[webr55]

I agree. And yes, it might be a Redeemer. But as director of a chamber of agriculture, Schleh was not that obscure, I think. These chambers played quite an important role.

Also, for example, the DOA lists a Ludwig Ewald, president of the Oberrechnungskammer Darmstadt with a Bavarian Crown Order COMMANDER.

There is a published list of Bavarian Crown Order knights, but it shows only Bavarians. If anyone knows of another list, I'd be most interested.

Yes, but it was directly comparable in importance to an MMJO and only very senior and very important Bavarians got it, so I can't see an obscure Prussian civil servant with one when a plain old St. Michael would have sufficed.

If there is a list of Bavarian Crown Order knights, I've never seen one. There should be.

But I think that is the wrong thing to be looking for.

[saschaw]

Here pictures of a button in my little collction.

Please don't(!) ID it, if it's possible it's in my honest opinion not worth the work, but what I indeed like to hear is what you think it might be for most likely as RR says "That is the problem with RIBBONS alone. Too many :banger:banger.gif could be MORE THAN ONE THING!" and is very right with it ...

My idea is:

- Preu?en, Roter Adler Orden;

- Italien, Orden der Italienischen Krone;

- Bayern, Verdienstorden vom Hl. Michael;

- Norwegen, Olafs-Orden;

- D?nemark, Danebrog-Orden.

All of course Knight cross or similiar, Red Eagle probably IV. Class ...

[saschaw]

And the reverse:

[webr55]

A very nice piece indeed! I think you have the ribbons correct except for #3, which in your case is probably the Greek Redeemer, though it's missing the narrow blue border stripes. Can't be anything German, in that place, I would think.

Chris

[saschaw]

A very nice piece indeed! I think you have the ribbons correct except for #3, which in your case is probably the Greek Redeemer, though it's missing the narrow blue border stripes. Can't be anything German, in that place, I would think.

Chris

No sorry, this is definitely the Bavarian one, the ribbon is faded out and much stronger where "the light doesn't reach" ...

(and Holy Michael is the typical award given to such persons, whoever he was, I've no idea)

But I'm not sure with Norway, is'n there a English ribbon that looks the same? Victoria Order or something like this? I'm not really familiar with British awards, not at all ...

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup, that's the Norwegian St Olaf ahead of the Danish Dannebrog. bows!!!

[landsknechte]

But I'm not sure with Norway, is'n there a English ribbon that looks the same? Victoria Order or something like this? I'm not really familiar with British awards, not at all ...

Order of the Crown of India & the Order of the Star of India are on a ribbon quite similar to the Greek Redeemer.

[saschaw]

Order of the Crown of India & the Order of the Star of India are on a ribbon quite similar to the Greek Redeemer.

Thanks, that might be, but the third ribbon on my button IS for sure Bavarian - and not really very similar to the Greek Redeemer, in my humble opinion ...

He was most likely a Prussian, and Bavaria is as foreign as Norway or Italy is, isn't it (for a Prussian ca. 1900) ?!

[Great Dane]

I agree with saschaw - those pinkish stripes are definitely the Bavarian Order of Hl. Michael...

I'm not so sure about ribbon no.2 though. Normally the Italian Order of the Crown would have red-white-red stripes of the same width, but this one seems to have a narrower white stripe.

Is there a German order/medal with these colors? That would fit nicely between the Prussian and the Bavarian ones.

/Mike

Edited January 5, 2007 by Great Dane