Lippe-Detmold: Leopold-Order

[Red Eagle]

What do you think about this Leopold-Order, original or fake?

Chiffres and crown are not soldered separately into the cross.

Here some more pic?s.

http://www.ordensmuseum.de/leo/leo.htm

Regards

Red

[Stogieman]

Looks brand new, especially with the rough-finish marks on the back. Enamel seems odd, as does the underlayment. Have you black-lighted the enamels? Should be a separate center chiffre as well.

[Red Eagle]

The enamel dont light under black-light. The center-chiffre are not separately.

Red

[Stogieman]

The pin and the hinge look correct for Lippe, but the enamel (blue) doesn't look right to my eyes, (could just be the scan) but if you look at the obverse center, the detail, enamel and quality doesn't look consistent with a House Order, especially the lettering of the motto.

[Yankee]

Hello Red Eagle

Unfortunately the Lippe Leopolds are heavily faked especially 3rd model issues. The one shown is certainly a fake the quality is lacking, arms should be purple. There are much better fakes then the one shown which is very dangerous for the collector. Good luck.....

[Josef Rietveld]

Bad news red eagle. i'am sorry. i watched this auction on ebay germany. is there a possibility to give it back or for a refund?

haynau

Zeige sells one in his coming auction:

Leopold-Orden, 3. Modell mit Schwalbe auf goldenem Stern, 1916-1918. Kreuz 2. Klasse, Steckkreuz, Silber emailliert, mit separat aufgelegtem Medaillon, starre Krone, r?ckseitig Tragenadel mit Punzierung "Silber". Verleihungsetui mit Gold gepr?gter Bezeichnung und lippischer Rose. Mit nur 18 Verleihungen extrem selten !

Nr. 55 I-II ? 3000.00

Edited January 2, 2007 by haynau

[medalnet]

All those "Silber" marked pieces were recently sold as part of a larger auction. Those pieces are basically collectors copies from the beginning of the 20th century. Some are better made then others but still not made before 1918.

In regards to the piece in Question: I would not want to buy it.

[Red Eagle]

Thx all, I can give it back, I so will I do.

Red

[Wild Card]

Hi Red Eagle,

Shown below is a close-up of an arm of a 3rd class, 3rd model (1916 - 18) badge, which I believe to be genuine. However, considering it?s source, I do have some doubts; and as already pointed out, there are so many copies of the badges of this order, I am honestly not qualified to say exactly what is good, and why.

There are two points which jump out in comparison to your example. First, of course is the color. I can appreciate how difficult it is to capture this particular color in a photograph and that your picture may not be an exact replication of the actual color in your badge. My picture is very close of mine.

The second point is the detail beneath the surface. Note the center ?spine? and then the pattern of the ?hatching? - following the plane of the outer lines of the arm on mine. Although our badges are different grades, I would expect that the pattern beneath the enamel should be the same on both.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Red Eagle]

Thx Wild Card,

I see, that my piece does not have a juwellery-quality.

I have a money-back guaranty and wil give it back.

The color on my photos are not the exact replication, it shown more the color of your cross.

Red

[Yankee]

All those "Silber" marked pieces were recently sold as part of a larger auction. Those pieces are basically collectors copies from the beginning of the 20th century. Some are better made then others but still not made before 1918.

In regards to the piece in Question: I would not want to buy it.

Hi Andreas

Absolutely agree, once had an orginal cased & never had any markings. The reverse was of high quality.

[Josef Rietveld]

Thanks medalnet, thanks yankee, again i learnt something i hope i will remember.

haynau

[Yankee]

Thanks medalnet, thanks yankee, again i learnt something i hope i will remember.

haynau

Hi Red Eagle

Glade to help, no fun to get stuck on a lemon. In the old days when purchasing a gold badge it was more then likely a good bet but now even lower classes in gold are being made today . Luckily for the most part you can tell by hand or 2nd best large quality scans. Good luck

Yankee

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Not to belabor this topic, I have finally found my copy of Reiner Schwark?s book ?Orden und Ehrenzeichen des F?rstentums Lippe Detmold 1778 - 1933? which has some information worth passing on. This is an excellent book, published in 2005, which I would recommend to any Imperial German collector; and having been published within the past two years, it certainly employs the latest in photographic reproduction technology and what it reveals I have found most interesting.

The color of the enamel in the arms of most relative examples is very close to what we have in post #1 and in a couple of cases, approaches post #9; but nowhere comes close to post #6! Relative to all examples, I repeat from post #9 ?I can appreciate how difficult it is to capture this particular color in a photograph...?.

With regard to the detail beneath the enamel, of those where I can see the pattern, I count five (including three pin backs) like post #1 and two like post #9. Those like post #1 reveal much more finely done work than what we see in post #1.

While I don?t think that any of this information is conclusive, I do hope that it may in some way help to solve the puzzle as to what is really correct when it comes to this order; and that you have found it useful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card