EK 1914 Various kinds of non combat EKs

[Chris Boonzaier]

Dang, Dang, Dang....

I was bidding on a white ribboned cross document on Ebay... then saw the seller had 2 other auctions with documents to the guy that I really did not need.

Being a moralist I cancelled my bid so I would not be the one responsible for splitting the group :-(

[joelhall]

i always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the iron cross was a symbol of the act not the persons status in general, but at the moment the act was fulfilled. for example a black ribbon would be awarded to anyone for a deed which was combatant in nature, as the white ribbon would be awarded for any deed which was non-combatant, as well as where the act took place, regardless of the position held by the awardee.

as an example a front line chaplain (a non-combatant personnel) would be awarded the black ribbon as all his acts would be carried out in the actual combat zone, same as with medics, persons in occupied territories. however any act that happened in an area not specified as the battle field or front, such as medical staff tending the wounded brought back, officers making decisive gestures far removed from the battle field, etc would not qualify fo the black ribbon but for the white. whether it was awarded for merit or bravery is besides the point, as any action which does not happen in any direct fire with the enemy, or whilst at risk of enemy activity is not a combatant action.

[Guest Rick Research]

"officers making decisive gestures far removed from the battle field, etc would not qualify fo the black ribbon but for the white."

No, not at all. By 1914, the use of these two ribbons on Prussian war awards had ironed out most inconsistencies that existed before then--

when status and sort of person mattered very much indeed-- a medical officer being jabbed with spears in the colonies got a white-black ribboned war Order before the Great War... which was crazy.

White ribboned Iron Crosses 1914+ went to civilians, and military personnel back home

except for the 6,645 who got the black-white ribbon "for war merit in the homeland" apparently ONLY because (we can still find NO statutory explanation for these) they were combatant branch officers serving at home.

A white-black ribboned Iron Cross before 1914 was earned by either

1) a civilian, or

2) a "noncombatant" military poerson (an 1870 medical corpsman who got his leg blown off in battle got a white-black because he was not a weapoins-carrier )

A white-black ribbon 1914 Iron Cross was earned by either

1) a civilian, or

2) a noncombatant military person faaaaaar from the front

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

My theory is (for 14-18) , anyone outside the borders of the Reich got a black ribbon, whether Nurse, Stormtrooper, General or Padre.

Inside Germany Officials and Civilians got a white ribbon and Military a black.

There is a pretty good thread on this somewhere.

best

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

1914 white-black Iron Crosses for home front civilians:

1914 white-black Iron Crosses for military officials back in the Vaterland:

[joelhall]

"officers making decisive gestures far removed from the battle field, etc would not qualify fo the black ribbon but for the white."

No, not at all. By 1914, the use of these two ribbons on Prussian war awards had ironed out most inconsistencies that existed before then--

when status and sort of person mattered very much indeed-- a medical officer being jabbed with spears in the colonies got a white-black ribboned war Order before the Great War... which was crazy.

White ribboned Iron Crosses 1914+ went to civilians, and military personnel back home

except for the 6,645

who got the black-white ribbon "for war merit in the homeland" apparently ONLY because (we can still find NO statutory explanation for these) they were combatant branch officers serving at home.

A white-black ribboned Iron Cross before 1914 was earned by either

1) a civilian, or

2) a "noncombatant" military poerson (an 1870 medical corpsman who got his leg blown off in battle got a white-black because he was not a weapoins-carrier )

A white-black ribbon 1914 Iron Cross was earned by either

1) a civilian, or

2) a noncombatant military person faaaaaar from the front

forgive me i dont think i explained it very well, but that was what i was trying to point out.

what, though, would be offered to a ciilian at the front in 1914? would this be a black/white bordered ribbon?

joel:)

[Chris Boonzaier]

forgive me i dont think i explained it very well, but that was what i was trying to point out.

what, though, would be offered to a ciilian at the front in 1914? would this be a black/white bordered ribbon?

joel:)

If he was working outside of Germany, in the occupied areas or behind the front in any official capacity... Black ribbon... even is 200 KMs from the fighting.

Best

Chrid

[Chris Boonzaier]

It bears mentioning... we still have not found a white ribboned cross to serving military in any capacity... I dont think it exists...

[joelhall]

It bears mentioning... we still have not found a white ribboned cross to serving military in any capacity... I dont think it exists...

now you mention it i recall seeing a photograph of the grand cross on a white ribbon.

im frantically searching to find it

ill let you know when i do:)

joel

[Chris Boonzaier]

now you mention it i recall seeing a photograph of the grand cross on a white ribbon.

im frantically searching to find it

ill let you know when i do:)

joel

Hi,

bare in mind... 14-18 white ribboned :-)

[Guest Rick Research]

Civilian at the front was still a civilian, and would have received a white-black.

Chris must mean no zone of operations military white-black, because there are plenty of white-blacks to stay at home military in Germany.

[Chris Boonzaier]

No no mon ami.... have you ever seen a white cross to a civilian serving OUTSIDE of Germany?

I have a cross to a civilian commisar, many , many, many many miles from the front... usual old black ribbon affair. Serving at Verviers in the city administration.

Ithink what we had discussed before must be true... white ribbon for service ON THE HOMEFRONT, black ribbon for service outside the Reich (I would guess anywhere over the border, whether it be occupied areas or in the Etappe of an army, no matter how far from the firing)

[Chris Boonzaier]

See post 22, ulstermans scan.....

This is the first thing that confirms what I had suspected all along....

"White Ribbon for DAHEIM services"

[Guest Rick Research]

Might be, might be. But that sounds like a uniformed Milit?rverwaltung type, who would have been a WW2 Sonderf?hrer-equivalent rather than a Red Cross type. And regarding such hybrid creatures-- I'm not even sure whether a 1914-18 "Sonderf?hrer" was eligible for a Hindenburg Cross, at all. Railways men weren't, if they were not actually in the military.

Regarding civilian white-black awards to stay at homes-- now that the Reichs AND Prussian 1918 lists have been found by the gnomes, we have a much better idea of that sort of recipient... all it takes it flipping through as many pages as a military Rank List.

Our REAL problem, of course, is trying to figure out how "special" "special military merit in the homeland" had to have been for a black-white as far away from danger as was possible, on the Continent.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

nope, a 100% civilian admin type.

Herrn Civilkommisar Dr. Von Bayer-Ehrenberg beim Kaiserl. Kreis-Chef, Verviers.

He was a civilian admin official.....

I once saw the rest of his group and all civilian stuff. I cannot remember why, but I did not manage to get the rest.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

nope, a 100% civilian admin type.

Herrn Civilkommisar Dr. Von Bayer-Ehrenberg beim Kaiserl. Kreis-Chef, Verviers.

He was a civilian admin official.....

I once saw the rest of his group and all civilian stuff. I cannot remember why, but I did not manage to get the rest.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Our REAL problem, of course, is trying to figure out how "special" "special merit in the homeland" had to have been for a black-white as far away from danger as was possible, on the Continent.

Hi,

So far all have been govt or military officials with a scattering of "Real" civilians, Doctors etc.

I have not seen a serving military/soldiers with a white ribbon... I guess that is where the Black ribboned for service in the Heimat comes in.... So scarce because the military had other kinds of awards to reward them and the military seems to have had more against issuing EKs for Homeland service than the State/civilain bodies who could authorise the white ribboned one.

Best

Chris

[Brian R]

Rick gave me some insight on this "white-black" doc years ago but I lost the data. I hoping to have it "re-explained"(I can post close-ups if need be). It is interesting that, although it appears to be quicky hand-written, it is actually a fill-in type and only the name, dates and "weiss-schwarz" parts are written...

Edited April 27, 2008 by Brian R

[Ulsterman]

If I read the above document correctly, it was to a civilian administrator (Lobvogel?) in the War Ministry?

So, any more data-points on noncom. EK2s out there?

Edited January 28, 2009 by Ulsterman

[gregM]

Was there ever a black / white cross awarded to a woman?

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh yes. In the Bund der Asienk?mpfer magazines of the 1920s and 1930s there are mentions, possibly names but I don't recall, of female nurses in the collapse of the Palestine/Jordan/Syria sector late 1918 who took up arms in self defense to prevent themselves and their wounded from being slaughtered by the advancing Arabs. But those were COMBAT awards and not the noncombatant varieties being discussed here.

[gregM]

Very interesting!! I had never heard of a woman actually winning a Ek for COMBAT.

I was thinking maybe a nurse or aid worker in a combat zone.

[Chris Boonzaier]

This man served in 1898

[Chris Boonzaier]

From 1903 he started working as a civilian in the Bekleidungsamt XIII K.W. Armeekorps where he worked until Feb 1921...

In 1917 he got this...

[Chris Boonzaier]

and in 1921 this.... on a white ribbon for serving the military in a civilian capacity...