Soviet English version of Mondvor website

[Mondvor]

Four

[Mondvor]

Four-reverse.

[Mondvor]

xxx

[Mondvor]

xxxx

[Mondvor]

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[Mondvor]

I hope that those images whould explain most of the questions. I don't want to go back to ABC level of collecting and explain the facts about patination of gold (which is extremely difficult to fake even nowadays), about mintmark details, about "watermarks" on medallion and about the handwriting in the serial number.

I would be happy to see this level of quality fakes mentioned by Christian. Most of the fakes I've seen before failed to match one or more of the criterias listed above.

[Ed_Haynes]

Much to study, thanks. But this is true for all the images on your website!

[Christian Zulus]

I hope that those images whould explain most of the questions. I don't want to go back to ABC level of collecting and explain the facts about patination of gold (which is extremely difficult to fake even nowadays), about mintmark details, about "watermarks" on medallion and about the handwriting in the serial number.

I would be happy to see this level of quality fakes mentioned by Christian. Most of the fakes I've seen before failed to match one or more of the criterias listed above.

Dear Andrew,

many thanks for your "blow-up scans" - they show all the details :-)

In that special case, they maybe want to save some gold (for theeth?) at the production of that Suvorov 2cl .

Concerning your MONDVOR-website and your reputation as one of the world's top experts:

Please, either decent scans in good quality (or blow-ups) or some more explanatory notes, whith scientific arguments.

Now it is a little bit a mess: Bad scans of rare & odd variants (Suvorov 2cl) + no serious explanatory notes.

We don't have to go back to the ABC of forgery - I know that gold-patina is almost impossible to fake ;- ) -, but the devils from the Baltics are delivering almost - at the first sight - convincing orders & medals :-(

Andrew, I regard you as the No. 1 expert in Soviet Awards and never thought, that you might present "Baltic-Products" at MONDVOR-website :-) But your scans are actually too bad in quality :-( (concerning only these two Suvorov 2cl !).

Best regards

Christian

[Ed_Haynes]

Sorry, but sometimes just posting a picture and implicitly saying "Here, see" is not worth 1,000 words, not even 5 words, sometimes it communicates nothing. Some context some explanation is -- often, if not always -- necessary. Sorry if this means you are having to talk down to the (non-Russian-speaking-and-reading) imbeciles. And I do wish you didn't feel that way.

[Mondvor]

Christian, I don't think that I am a real "expert". I'm in the process of constant learning and for me it is still a long way to go until I would say that I'm more or less "expert". But on the creation of Mondvor website we work as a team. Besides my co-author Igor Pak there are few more persons, who have really long history of being in phaleristics activities. They help with the scans, with the information and with good advices. However, some of them belong to "old school" of collectors and they are not very familiar with modern computer technologies. Some of them have old crappy scanners with low level of resolution, so the images they send are not perfect. Still, I'm very grateful even for those low-quality images because "something is better than nothing". I'm always trying to improve the images in Photoshop, but it doesn't work in number of cases. So we have what we have...

[Ed_Haynes]

You have the images you have, and you work with what is available. I hope we all understand that challenge.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Andrew,

you are the expert, because you have the feeling, the knowledge and you know Soviet history & daily life . And you are accurate ...

I would advise to put the "blow-up-scans", you presented us at GMIC, at an additional website-level to MONDVOR. So, if anyone wants to have a closer look at thes odd items, he can have it with just one mouse-click .

Many fellow collectors would say "Oupps ...., what's that!", when they scroll down your (English) MONDVOR-website. With the additional blow-up-scans there will be no discussion any more about those items .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I don't have Suvorovs in my modest collection (only one Kutuzov 2cl), but I had a Suvorov 1cl, 2 T (authentic from the mint, but "museum") & a Suvorov 2cl 2T (ereased s/n.) at the dealer's shop in my hands.

[Mondvor]

Sorry, but sometimes just posting a picture and implicitly saying "Here, see" is not worth 1,000 words, not even 5 words, sometimes it communicates nothing. Some context some explanation is -- often, if not always -- necessary. Sorry if this means you are having to talk down to the (non-Russian-speaking-and-reading) imbeciles. And I do wish you didn't feel that way.

Ed, sometimes it is not possible to explain every aspect of authenticity features of a particular order. It really doesn't matter wether or not you speak Russian or English or other language. Same holds true for Russian-speaking collectors as well. It would come with experience. If you observe 10 real orders and 11th would be a fake, you recognize it right away.

I do not remember that Paul McDaniel EVER explained any of his verdicts on his certificates. Nevertheless people were happy about his certificates and didn't ask him any questions. But in my case you demand explanation. Such information costs big money (considering our present prices on the market). And many people prefer to keep they own little secrets and not share them to anyone. When I can, I always explain my opinion. Even on this forum I did it several times (for example with those BH screwbacks). If you have any suspicious order just send a good images and I'll be happy to express my opinion about it. But I expect some hard work from other side too. Should we only rely on some experts? Maybe we should try to learn something by ourselves? That was my point from the very beginning. We have to learn, collect information, transform it, and make a conclusions. We should analyze scans, seek for "watermarks", compare the configurations of mintmarks and styles of handwritings in serial numbers. Only this way we would gain some skills.

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed, sometimes it is not possible to explain every aspect of authenticity features of a particular order. It really doesn't matter wether or not you speak Russian or English or other language. Same holds true for Russian-speaking collectors as well. It would come with experience. If you observe 10 real orders and 11th would be a fake, you recognize it right away.

I do not remember that Paul McDaniel EVER explained any of his verdicts on his certificates. Nevertheless people were happy about his certificates and didn't ask him any questions. But in my case you demand explanation. Such information costs big money (considering our present prices on the market). And many people prefer to keep they own little secrets and not share them to anyone. When I can, I always explain my opinion. Even on this forum I did it several times (for example with those BH screwbacks). If you have any suspicious order just send a good images and I'll be happy to express my opinion about it. But I expect some hard work from other side too. Should we only rely on some experts? Maybe we should try to learn something by ourselves? That was my point from the very beginning. We have to learn, collect information, transform it, and make a conclusions. We should analyze scans, seek for "watermarks", compare the configurations of mintmarks and styles of handwritings in serial numbers. Only this way we would gain some skills.

This is one reason I find things like the OMSA meetings so valuable. One dealer, in particular, always brings along some not-for-sale fakes and some real items so you can see. Only hands-on experience will make sense beyond a certain point. And, while we surely don't want to educate the fakers, we need to share knowledge and all must continue our learning.

And, as a professional acdemic historian, I do appreciate much of what you are saying. So long as we can all learn and teach effectively, without adopting a "well I know (and you don't)" attitude. This is my problem with many self-appoointed experts. Those who earn the status, as you have, fall into another category.

But who has the opportunity to handly multiple specimens of, say, tractor Lenins??

[Mondvor]

This is one reason I find things like the OMSA meetings so valuable. One dealer, in particular, always brings along some not-for-sale fakes and some real items so you can see. Only hands-on experience will make sense beyond a certain point. And, while we surely don't want to educate the fakers, we need to share knowledge and all must continue our learning.

And, as a professional acdemic historian, I do appreciate much of what you are saying. So long as we can all learn and teach effectively, without adopting a "well I know (and you don't)" attitude. This is my problem with many self-appoointed experts. Those who earn the status, as you have, fall into another category.

But who has the opportunity to handly multiple specimens of, say, tractor Lenins??

Well, I've personally observed 3 Tractor Lenins One in USA and two in Ukraine. I have friends who posess amazing collections and they are kind enough to give me an opportunity to study their items. If you send me a good picture of any suspicious order from your collection, I'll be more than happy to tell you my opinion and expain you the details. In difficult cases I always ask my friends for help. More opinions, more chances to find the truth. But I prefer to do that in personal mail, not on public forum. Mainly because "we don't want to educate the fakers", as you truly mentioned.

Fakes are getting better every day and we have to be in constant updating process. For example, what do you think about this Gold Star? Correct answer would be "it is fake". But the quality is incredible

Edited February 4, 2007 by Mondvor

[Mondvor]

reverse

[Ed_Haynes]

They are getting really good, really scary.

[NavyFCO]

I would say that it's a fake. And I don't even declare myself an expert on these. However, I have collected enough photos/scans of these (both real and fake) over the years to where this one fits the fake ones. The aging on it is very, very, very good though!

One thing that is rather interesting... who are the jewelers that turn out these exceptional fakes? I looked for years for a company or person that could turn out a "perfect" fake Nevsky (T3) to replace one lost by an actual recipient (who was still alive at the time). I could never find anyone to do it.

Dave

[JimZ]

As always - on the one hand there is the need to continually produce information to bona fide collectors who still lack a real updated comprehensive guide to soviet orders and medals. On the other hand, yes, the quality of fakes is improving and in producing good, reliable information inclusive of high quality scans that are so easily accessible online, one helps collectors and fakers alike. Information is a double edged blade that cuts both ways.

One would say that 18 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of variations should have been observed to and documented. Apparantly not as new variations do indeed crop up from time to time.....And sadly...amongst these new variations one comes across fakes which make the study ever more complicated.....and ever more costly when mistakes are made!

Hence every bit of correct information helps and until this is bound within the covers of one book (dream a little dream!!), we need to identify and collect /collate information in almost the very same way we build our collections.

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

So true, Jim. Except maybe the information is more important than the things?

[JimZ]

Maybe ... especially if you are about to dabble in the high end orders that cost a few thousand dollars a pop!!!

Seeing fakes go at high prices is very scary! A genuine mistake is one thing and often a costly learning experience. But of course, if you can avoid that by studying the information then the value of that information is indeed priceless and as important as the piece in question. Good information sources will more often than not help you in your endeavours to get yourself a good piece!

Jim

[Eric Gaumann]

Back to the original topic;

I'm thrilled there now is an English language version of the Mondvor website!

And the pictures load so much faster; another bonus.

Thank you Andrew. You help make collecting a lot of fun. (and addictive)

[Bryan]

It seems they didn't have time to make more translation.

[Ed_Haynes]

So sad, maybe some day.

[reichsrommel]

I have sent email to the webmaster some months ago. But no response:(

Tang Si