Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Hi,I picked up the following Gold WW1 Marine Wound Badge from a local show a while ago. It was cheap but I was not 100% on authenticity. The hinge and pin looked authentic for WW1 Wound Badges but the finish was a bit strange and there were some problems with obverse detailing. I knew it warranted further investigation and thought it would at least be a good filler if it turned out to be bad.I'll load some pics first and then continue with my "investigation" in subsequent posts - please hold off with comments for a while!RegardsMike KObverse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Reverse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Composite image of hinge/pin/catch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 OK. What I noticed was a hinge and pin which looked authentic, a neat but very small catch, an unusual gold finish and some "lumps" in the chain wreath. See the "lumps" below.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Initially I though the lumps may have been excess finish but it turns out they are part of the badge - ie excess metal. Upon investigating the finish, I determined that the badge had been refinished. It originally had a nice but apparently worn lighter yellow gold plated finish which has been overpainted with a slightly darker metallic orange/gold paint - giving it a fire-gilt effect though. A Side Note - metallic paints and bare metal give a fire-gilt effect, so be careful when judging finish on fire-gilt badges in general!I left most of the finish intact but I did look carefully around the hinge area and sure enough, there was lead solder under the re-painted hinge area - indicating a repair. This explains the apparently authentic (WW1 vintage) hinge/pin - they are replacements. The pin fits perfectly into the catch though, so it was a fairly good repair job.Next stage was to search and try and find other examples. Eventually I did but the news was not good. I found a German auction seller with all three grades of the badge for sale. The badges shared the "lumps" in the chain wreath AND the small catch. The seller described them as being produced by S&L in the 50s/60s - ir they are post-WW2 restikes. Probably from original but damaged dies - hence the excess metal in the chain wreath. I've since seen several others.I've misplaced his pics but I'll load the pics of another example - better quality image. Keep in mind that the finish on this example is not good. The finishes on the other examples (Black, Silver and Gold) looked very nice.Obverse.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 Reverse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 (edited) And to conclude...You'll note that the obverse of the two badges share the same (or very similar) die flaws in the chain wreath. Both badges share the same characteristic small catch. On the second badge, you can see that these badges originally had a needle pin and an unusual folded hinge (similar to that found on WW2 Wound Badge, but a lot thiner/finer). My conclusion from all of this is that this flimsy hinge/needle pin/small catch assembly was used by S&L Post WW2 and that any other S&L Badge with this hinge/pin/catch setup is probably of post-WW2 construction. I certainly would not buy one.yoRegardsMike KPS: I should add that the German seller was only asking 20-30 Euro each for all grades of the WW1 Marine Wound Badge and that the badge is made from brass/tombak. I do not know exactly how/why he knew who produced them and when. Why spin a story to sell a restrike as a restrike though?!PPS: Please post away with any comments! Edited July 14, 2005 by Mike K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Nice piece of research Mike. I never bothered to examine the individual pieces just outright dismissed the un-natural flood of these onto the market in the past year. Nothing is sacred. What is astounding is that someone has even started to fake the 3-piece, stamped tin issue WW1 Air Gunner Badge. Caveat Emptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Here is my WW1 Naval wound badge. It came with a Niemann authenication. and ... it was rather pricey.I am concerned ..... how can it be determined to be WW1 versus WW2... and GOLD????Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Looks like a typical example to me. Given the navy's statistical nature of alive OR dead injuries, I have always thought that virtually all of these were never issued and sat around on effects dealers' shelves from 1918 until the buildings were torn down to put up cellphone towers.They are what they are, as loose items without award documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Given the navy's statistical nature of alive OR dead injuries, I have always thought that virtually all of these were never issued and sat around on effects dealers' shelves from 1918 until the buildings were torn down to put up cellphone towers.But... but... but.... dont forget, the Marine Divisions fighting in the trenches got naval wound badges as well.So, both legs lost in a barrage in Flanders.... and whammo.... there you have your golden wound badge.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Looks good to me also. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 "So, both legs lost in a barrage in Flanders.... and whammo.... there you have your golden wound badge...."In 1936, when regulations made severity rather than number of times wounded the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 "So, both legs lost in a barrage in Flanders.... and whammo.... there you have your golden wound badge...."In 1936, when regulations made severity rather than number of times wounded the key.here is a thought.... many WW1 wound badge docs are dated post 36. I must have about 10 or so. I think my one to the navy doctor was 38 or so... Did they have them issued under the new rules? Were old awads upgraded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Note to the new collector....This is one of the most deadlest wound badges to go after. Lots of fakes, repros and re issued badges out there. Great care must be taken in search of a period badge. don Edited February 14, 2009 by don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Thanks to all for replies.I realized these can be "land mines", but I was heartened by the Niemann accompanying statement:"German wound badge for Navy 1914-1918 in gold. Magnetic gilded.W: 41.2 mm H: 46.3 mm Weight 10,4 gThe described and pictured piece is from my point of view an original example of this order. Size, dimensions and quality do correspond with known originals in museums or public collections." I suppose without a related award document and proof of the simulateous purchase of the document and badge from the family, et al of the awardee, the possibility of fake exists.I want to make it clear that my purpose is not to challenge Niemann's statement. I have great respect for his opinion. In fact I would not have bought this badge without that statement.I was hoping for some fine points to watch for in exaluating these badges. Guess this is a really tough area especially a newbie to evaluate.Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 If you bought that badge with little research, you lucked out. Buying anything from a dealer or well known one like Mr. Nieman is not a 100%. Another note to the new collector. Do your homework. Try also to keep to the well-known makers. Another thing I see a lot with new collectors, They want that gold wound badge. You better do your homework. I just saw someone get burnt on an auction for $340.He bought the famous Gold l/14 fake wide pins. I have over 80 wound badges in my collection, with only two golds. New collectors should keep away from the 1918 navy, any gold l/14 and any 1936 Screw backs. If you are going to buy one I listed,get help.I would not even buy a 1918 navy without another opinion. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) If you bought that badge with little research, you lucked out. don[/quoteYessss I did luck out!!! Whewwww ]I really do try to limit my dumb questions I post of this forum by first research books as well as prior postings on this forum as well as a few others. (I always seem to be running to catch up with everyone else. ) But it typically happens I see something I like and need to grab it before someone else does. And yessss I have been burned. Guess that is the cost of an education.... sigh...I tried to get a copy (69 PP paperback) of William E. Hamelman's book German Wound Badges which is now out of print. Prices range for existing copies of $150 to $200!! I have no idea how much of it is devoted to Naval badges.I have found bits and pieces of information on Naval wound badges on this and the other forums. I wonder if there is a market for a new book concentrating on the Naval ones to consolidate information and hopefully make corrections by presenting and consolidating opinions.Rod Edited February 17, 2009 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Thanks to allRod Edited February 18, 2009 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) OHHHH meee!!!!I truly do hate to be a pest BUT ......... Would someone speculate if the heavier (barrel type) hinge and needle pin on my badge shown above might possibly indicate an early period (during WW1) as opposed to later manufacture?I have seen other badges with a smaller type hinge and a more stout, blunt nosed pin.Maybe I am grasping at straws...... Rod Edited February 20, 2009 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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