Imperial medal collecting....

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am woefully ignirint bout them there medals that isnt an Iron Cross...

I was once reading an article that said Bavarian stuff was really expensive, and that Saxony was relatively cheap. This probably due to the fact that modern day Bavaria is wealthier than Saxony and as a result the collectors in Bavaria are willing to pay more for their stuff.

An interesting theory, How does the wealth of the different provinces effect the prices of their medals?

Which ones are "hot" and which ones are not.

Best

Chris

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Chris:

This theory was definately correct in the past when the DDR existed. Saxon, Anhalt, Mecklenburg, etc. pieces could be had for a song. Now it seems as though the prices of these items (and collector interest) is increasing exponentially as the economy of the "Eastern" areas is improving.

That being said though, there isn't much that is "cheap" anymore. Prussian pieces used to be a relative bargain compared to Bavarian, but no longer!

Smaller "states" items used to be "cheap" too as there were not many publications that pointed out how rare some of the items were. Now, collectors are starting to appreciate a lot more items as knowledge expands, and this is driving prices higher and higher.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Stogieman]

Gee whiz, I did Saxony when the DDR was still around. There was nothing cheap about St Henry Orders od Merit Orders back then!! The Albert Order and the lesser decorations were less expensive than today, but not the highest orders!!

[Dave Danner]

Supply seems as much a factor than demand. The more common ones are generally cheaper, and the more common ones tend to be from the larger states.

Some WW1 award numbers:

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern: approx. 24,000

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern: approx. 73,000

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern: approx. 290,000

Saxony: Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: 11,099

Saxony: Silberne Milit?r-St. Heinrich-Medaille: approx. 8,300

Saxony: Silberne Friedrich-August-Medaille: unknown but relatively common

Saxony: Bronzene Friedrich-August-Medaille: unknown but relatively common

W?rttemberg: Friedrichsorden Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: 5,111

W?rttemberg: Silberne Milit?rverdienstmedaille: 201,412

Baden: Orden des Z?hringer L?wen Ritterkreuz 2. Kl. mit Schwertern: 6,367 (Volle)

Baden: Silberne Verdienstmedaille am Bande des Milit?rischen Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstordens: approx. 170,000

Hesse: Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen "F?r Tapferkeit": approx. 150,000

Oldenburg: Friedrich August-Kreuz 2. Klasse: approx. 63,000 on combatant's ribbon

Hamburg: Hanseatenkreuz: approx. 50,000

Bremen: Hanseatenkreuz: approx. 20,000

[Riley1965]

There's one thing I've never understood about the :

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern

and the

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern

Why would the lower 4th class have enamel and the 3rd class not? I would think that the higher classes would have the enamel.

Doc

[Stijn David]

Hi Doc,

Somtimes a jungle it is but do not let you be lead by the grades from these decorations, there is for certain a very large difference.

As you said it yourself :

officers = Orders, for example:

* Milit?rverdienstorden 1 e class

* Milit?rverdienstorden 2 e class

* Milit?rverdienstorden 3 e class

* Milit?rverdienstorden 4 e class

non commisioned + soldiers = the assimilated crosses towards a certain order, in this case:

* Milit?rverdienstkreuz 1 e class

* Milit?rverdienstkreuz 2 e class

* Milit?rverdienstkreuz 3 e class

(and all the attachements, swords, crown, different ribbons, etc ... etc ....), but also note that the above ranking only does apply for lets say the WWI area, as many times the orders changed either appearance, medals or crosses where added, etc ...

All very interesting but a real jungle for sure

[Schießplatzmeister]

There's one thing I've never understood about the :

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern

and the

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern

Why would the lower 4th class have enamel and the 3rd class not? I would think that the higher classes would have the enamel.

Doc

Hello Doc:

As David pointed out, the Bavarian Military Merit Order has different grades of the Order for Officers and different grades of Merit Crosses for NCO's and enlisted men. Both are part of the Order. Hence, the Military Merit Order 4th Class with swords is for Officers and is made of enamelled silver, and the Military Merit Order, Merit Cross 3rd Class with swords for NCO's and enlisted men is made of copper or "kriegsmetal".

I hope that this clarifies the issue.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Riley1965]

Guys,

Thank You!!! It all makes sense now. I should have caught "Orden" & "Kreuz".

Doc

[medalnet]

Supply seems as much a factor than demand. The more common ones are generally cheaper, and the more common ones tend to be from the larger states.

Some WW1 award numbers:

Bavaria: Milit?rverdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern: approx. 24,000

.....

Saxony: Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern: 11,099

Doesn't this make it even more insane. More MVO's but still higher in price. I do believe that the Bavarians have still more collectors and collectors not just in bavaria then the Saxons do. Due to the fact that Bavaria had the western currency since the 50th helped, too.

I do think that not many people remember or know that it was kind of semi legal to collect artefacts made before 1945?! Please correct me if I do not resemble this all to correct here, but I do know that the central state owned art and antiquity business managed to confiscate and sell besides regular art several militaria collections. Just to name the Oswald collection (Collected over 3 generations) being the foundation of the Dresden Military Museum. Several other oders and decoration were confiscated and sold to the West. This will also explain why there may be less collectors in the east compared to the west.

[Yankee]

Hello Gentlemen

Does anybody know what were the three smallest of the German States in amount of awards given?

[Dave Danner]

Hello Gentlemen

Does anybody know what were the three smallest of the German States in amount of awards given?

The "three smallest of the German States" were Mecklenburg-Strelitz (103,451), Waldeck (59,135) and Schaumburg-Lippe (44,992). Reu?-Greiz, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen were each smaller than Mecklenburg-Strelitz, but Reu?-Greiz is combined with Reu?-Gera and the two Schwarzburgs with each other, making them bigger.

As for "smallest...in amount of awards given", that is hard to say. Award numbers don't compare well for a number of reasons. Both Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Schaumburg-Lippe had single awards, the Cross for Distinction in War for Mecklenburg-Strelitz and the Cross for Loyal Service for Schaumburg-Lippe, which like the Iron Cross were awarded without regard to rank. Waldeck, however, did not. You might have to add up all the grades of Waldeck's Merit Cross and its medals to have a number comparable to Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Schaumburg-Lippe.

Basically, in WW1 there were somewhere over 8,131 awards of the Mecklenburg-Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War. There were 10,397 awards of the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service. There were about 4,750-5,500 awards of all grades of the Waldeck Merit Cross.

As you can see, Schaumburg-Lippe seems to have awarded more than its proportionate share. Indeed, although L?beck had three times the population of Schaumburg-Lippe, it awarded fewer Hanseatic Crosses - 8,000-10,000.

This shows that population is not the only measure. There are several reasons why Schaumburg-Lippe might have been more liberal with its awards. States often gave awards not only to the men of their own units, but to men in regiments where the states' princes also served or had honorary attachments. Besides Schamburg-Lippe's own J?ger-Bataillon Nr. 7, the various Schaumburg princes were to be found in many regiments - Husaren-Regiment Nr. 7, 2. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment, the Leib-K?rassier-Regiment, Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 3, and Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 53. Schaumburgers also served in other Westphalian units, such as Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 15. Neither the house of Mecklenburg-Strelitz nor the house of Waldeck were as widely spread out, and L?beck had no princes. But there was an even bigger factor for Schaumburg-Lippe. The Queen of W?rttemberg, the empire's fourth largest state, was a princess of Schaumburg-Lippe. Two Schaumburg princes would serve in W?rttemberg regiments during World War I, spreading the principality's reach even further.

[Yankee]

The "three smallest of the German States" were Mecklenburg-Strelitz (103,451), Waldeck (59,135) and Schaumburg-Lippe (44,992). Reu?-Greiz, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen were each smaller than Mecklenburg-Strelitz, but Reu?-Greiz is combined with Reu?-Gera and the two Schwarzburgs with each other, making them bigger.

As for "smallest...in amount of awards given", that is hard to say. Award numbers don't compare well for a number of reasons. Both Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Schaumburg-Lippe had single awards, the Cross for Distinction in War for Mecklenburg-Strelitz and the Cross for Loyal Service for Schaumburg-Lippe, which like the Iron Cross were awarded without regard to rank. Waldeck, however, did not. You might have to add up all the grades of Waldeck's Merit Cross and its medals to have a number comparable to Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Schaumburg-Lippe.

Basically, in WW1 there were somewhere over 8,131 awards of the Mecklenburg-Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War. There were 10,397 awards of the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service. There were about 4,750-5,500 awards of all grades of the Waldeck Merit Cross.

As you can see, Schaumburg-Lippe seems to have awarded more than its proportionate share. Indeed, although L?beck had three times the population of Schaumburg-Lippe, it awarded fewer Hanseatic Crosses - 8,000-10,000.

This shows that population is not the only measure. There are several reasons why Schaumburg-Lippe might have been more liberal with its awards. States often gave awards not only to the men of their own units, but to men in regiments where the states' princes also served or had honorary attachments. Besides Schamburg-Lippe's own J?ger-Bataillon Nr. 7, the various Schaumburg princes were to be found in many regiments - Husaren-Regiment Nr. 7, 2. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment, the Leib-K?rassier-Regiment, Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 3, and Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 53. Schaumburgers also served in other Westphalian units, such as Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 15. Neither the house of Mecklenburg-Strelitz nor the house of Waldeck were as widely spread out, and L?beck had no princes. But there was an even bigger factor for Schaumburg-Lippe. The Queen of W?rttemberg, the empire's fourth largest state, was a princess of Schaumburg-Lippe. Two Schaumburg princes would serve in W?rttemberg regiments during World War I, spreading the principality's reach even further.

Thanks Dave for that wealth of info, fascinating the princes would go to serve in other regiments outside their own. I guess it would be reciprocal protocol for the princes from the larger states to serve in a Schaumberg Lippe regiment. I have noticed many more awards coming from Lippe Schaumberg than Mecklenburg Strelitz. What you say certainly explains this, for I have never seen the all elusive ( Sterlitz ) Wendish Crown in sales catalogs. To collect ( orders ) the smaller States is fascinating but probably most difficult of them all, since less were issued. I've noticed the Mecklenburg Schwerin & Mecklenburg Sterlitz are almost identical, same with both Lippe's & Schwarzburg in design of their orders. The Prinipalities were split and their orders were kept closely aligned.

[Dave Danner]

Thanks Dave for that wealth of info, fascinating the princes would go to serve in other regiments outside their own. I guess it would be reciprocal protocol for the princes from the larger states to serve in a Schaumberg Lippe regiment. I have noticed many more awards coming from Lippe Schaumberg than Mecklenburg Strelitz. What you say certainly explains this, for I have never seen the all elusive ( Sterlitz ) Wendish Crown in sales catalogs. To collect ( orders ) the smaller States is fascinating but probably most difficult of them all, since less were issued. I've noticed the Mecklenburg Schwerin & Mecklenburg Sterlitz are almost identical, same with both Lippe's & Schwarzburg in design of their orders. The Prinipalities were split and their orders were kept closely aligned.

Generally, they weren't reciprocal. Schaumburg-Lippe didn't have a regiment. Its contribution to the Army was a J?ger-Bataillon and its Reserve-J?ger-Bataillonen. Other than princes of Schaumburg-Lippe, no members of ruling houses served in the B?ckeburg J?gers.

King Wilhelm II of W?rttemberg had no sons. His daughter's husband had staff jobs. King Wilhelm II had chosen as his successor Duke Albrecht of W?rttemberg, his cousin several times removed. Duke Wilhelm of Urach might have had a superior claim, but wasn't the king's choice.

Duke Albrecht started the war as a Generaloberst and commander of the 6th Army. He became a Field Marshal and commander of Army Group Duke Albrecht (Heeresgruppe Herzog Albrecht). His three sons all started out in W?rttemberg regiments - Duke Philipp Albrecht in the 2nd W?rttemberg Dragoons (DR 26), Duke Albrecht Eugen in Grenadier-Regiment K?nigin Olga (GR 119), and Duke Carl Alexander in Infanterie-Regiment Alt-W?rttemberg (IR 121). Philipp Albrecht and Carl Alexander ended up on their father's staff and Albrecht Eugen on the staff of the 14th Army. Carl Alexander later became a Benedictine monk.

Duke Albrecht's younger brother Duke Robert commanded W?rttemberg's 26. Kavallerie-Brigade in 1914 and also ended up on Duke Albrecht's staff. Duke Albrecht's youngest brother Duke Ulrich commanded the 2nd W?rttemberg Uhlans (Ulanen-Regiment K?nig Wilhelm I Nr. 20) in 1914 and later commanded the 16. Kavallerie-Brigade.

Duke Wilhelm of Urach commanded the 26. (2. Kgl. W?rtt.) Infanterie-Division in 1914 and then Korps Urach. His last command was Generalkommando z.b.V. 64 (Erwin Rommel ended up on his staff in early 1918). Passed over for the W?rttemberg throne, he did get one, though, being made King Mindaugas II of Lithuania in July 1918. Unfortunately for him, that only lasted until November 1918 (fortunately for his children, though, since that meant they weren't there when the Soviets occupied Lithuania in 1940).

Duke Wilhelm had two sons of military age. F?rst Wilhelm von Urach served with a W?rttemberg field artillery regiment, Feld-Artillerie Regiment K?nig Karl (1. W?rttembergisches) Nr. 13. F?rst Carl Gero von Urach served with GR 119. Duke Wilhelm's younger brother F?rst Carl von Urach was a retired Colonel ? la suite to the 1st W?rttemberg Uhlans (Ulanen-Regiment K?nig Karl Nr. 19).

[Yankee]

Generally, they weren't reciprocal. Schaumburg-Lippe didn't have a regiment. Its contribution to the Army was a J?ger-Bataillon and its Reserve-J?ger-Bataillonen. Other than princes of Schaumburg-Lippe, no members of ruling houses served in the B?ckeburg J?gers.

King Wilhelm II of W?rttemberg had no sons. His daughter's husband had staff jobs. King Wilhelm II had chosen as his successor Duke Albrecht of W?rttemberg, his cousin several times removed. Duke Wilhelm of Urach might have had a superior claim, but wasn't the king's choice.

Duke Albrecht started the war as a Generaloberst and commander of the 6th Army. He became a Field Marshal and commander of Army Group Duke Albrecht (Heeresgruppe Herzog Albrecht). His three sons all started out in W?rttemberg regiments - Duke Philipp Albrecht in the 2nd W?rttemberg Dragoons (DR 26), Duke Albrecht Eugen in Grenadier-Regiment K?nigin Olga (GR 119), and Duke Carl Alexander in Infanterie-Regiment Alt-W?rttemberg (IR 121). Philipp Albrecht and Carl Alexander ended up on their father's staff and Albrecht Eugen on the staff of the 14th Army. Carl Alexander later became a Benedictine monk.

Duke Albrecht's younger brother Duke Robert commanded W?rttemberg's 26. Kavallerie-Brigade in 1914 and also ended up on Duke Albrecht's staff. Duke Albrecht's youngest brother Duke Ulrich commanded the 2nd W?rttemberg Uhlans (Ulanen-Regiment K?nig Wilhelm I Nr. 20) in 1914 and later commanded the 16. Kavallerie-Brigade.

Duke Wilhelm of Urach commanded the 26. (2. Kgl. W?rtt.) Infanterie-Division in 1914 and then Korps Urach. His last command was Generalkommando z.b.V. 64 (Erwin Rommel ended up on his staff in early 1918). Passed over for the W?rttemberg throne, he did get one, though, being made King Mindaugas II of Lithuania in July 1918. Unfortunately for him, that only lasted until November 1918 (fortunately for his children, though, since that meant they weren't there when the Soviets occupied Lithuania in 1940).

Duke Wilhelm had two sons of military age. F?rst Wilhelm von Urach served with a W?rttemberg field artillery regiment, Feld-Artillerie Regiment K?nig Karl (1. W?rttembergisches) Nr. 13. F?rst Carl Gero von Urach served with GR 119. Duke Wilhelm's younger brother F?rst Carl von Urach was a retired Colonel ? la suite to the 1st W?rttemberg Uhlans (Ulanen-Regiment K?nig Karl Nr. 19).

I'm amazed to learn how so active the Royalty was in serving the Wurttemberg militaty. So many Duke's in leadership roles. I suppose it was the same in all the German States. I wonder if they had to go through the same vigorous training as other officers, was advancement easier since they were related to the King. I take it in Germany or any Kingdom at the time, the choice profession for the aristocracy was the military. Amazing how Dule Carl Alexander did a 180 degree turn in his life & opted to serve in a Monastery.

[Dave Danner]

I'm amazed to learn how so active the Royalty was in serving the Wurttemberg militaty. So many Duke's in leadership roles. I suppose it was the same in all the German States. I wonder if they had to go through the same vigorous training as other officers, was advancement easier since they were related to the King. I take it in Germany or any Kingdom at the time, the choice profession for the aristocracy was the military. Amazing how Dule Carl Alexander did a 180 degree turn in his life & opted to serve in a Monastery.

Not really limited to W?rttemberg.

Prinz Leopold von Bayern, King Ludwig III's brother, was a Generalfeldmarschall and commander of the 9. Armee, Heeresgruppe Prinz Leopold von Bayern, Heeresfront Prinz Leopold von Bayern and was then Oberbefehlshaber Ost.

Kronprinz Rupprecht von Bayern led the 6. Armee and then Heeresgruppe Kronprinz Rupprecht von Bayern. His oldest son Erbprinz Luitpold was only 13 and died shortly after the war began. A number of other Bavarian nobles served in various capacities. Prinz Heinrich von Bayern, son of King Ludwig III's late brother Arnulf, was killed in action in Romania in 1916.

Kronprinz Wilhelm von Preu?en led the 5. Armee and then Heeresgruppe Deutscher Kronprinz. Other Prussian princes held various commands.

Friedrich August Georg Kronprinz von Sachsen, born in 1893, was too young and only an Oberleutnant in 1914. He was eventually commander of the 245. Infanterie-Brigade, though. He became a Jesuit after the war. Maybe not a 180, but close. His younger brothers were junior officers in Saxon infantry regiments.

Prinz Johann Georg, Herzog zu Sachsen, brother of King Friedrich August III, was nominally a soldier, but more of an explorer at heart, and does not appear to have taken an active military role in the war. He was only in his mid to late 40s, so age wasn't an issue.

Herzog Ernst II von Sachsen-Altenburg commanded the 8. Infanterie-Division in 1915 and 1916. The Grand Dukes of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Hesse and Mecklenburg-Schwerin, the Dukes of Saxe-Meiningen and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and the Prince of Reuss served on corps and division staffs. F?rst G?nther of the two Schwarzburgs was in his 60s and didn't hold an active command.

Others served in various capacities, and others did not.

[Yankee]

Not really limited to W?rttemberg.

Prinz Leopold von Bayern, King Ludwig III's brother, was a Generalfeldmarschall and commander of the 9. Armee, Heeresgruppe Prinz Leopold von Bayern, Heeresfront Prinz Leopold von Bayern and was then Oberbefehlshaber Ost.

Kronprinz Rupprecht von Bayern led the 6. Armee and then Heeresgruppe Kronprinz Rupprecht von Bayern. His oldest son Erbprinz Luitpold was only 13 and died shortly after the war began. A number of other Bavarian nobles served in various capacities. Prinz Heinrich von Bayern, son of King Ludwig III's late brother Arnulf, was killed in action in Romania in 1916.

Kronprinz Wilhelm von Preu?en led the 5. Armee and then Heeresgruppe Deutscher Kronprinz. Other Prussian princes held various commands.

Friedrich August Georg Kronprinz von Sachsen, born in 1893, was too young and only an Oberleutnant in 1914. He was eventually commander of the 245. Infanterie-Brigade, though. He became a Jesuit after the war. Maybe not a 180, but close. His younger brothers were junior officers in Saxon infantry regiments.

Prinz Johann Georg, Herzog zu Sachsen, brother of King Friedrich August III, was nominally a soldier, but more of an explorer at heart, and does not appear to have taken an active military role in the war. He was only in his mid to late 40s, so age wasn't an issue.

Herzog Ernst II von Sachsen-Altenburg commanded the 8. Infanterie-Division in 1915 and 1916. The Grand Dukes of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Hesse and Mecklenburg-Schwerin, the Dukes of Saxe-Meiningen and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and the Prince of Reuss served on corps and division staffs. F?rst G?nther of the two Schwarzburgs was in his 60s and didn't hold an active command.

Others served in various capacities, and others did not.

Thanks once again for the amazing insight on the Dukes & Princes on their military service, some have lead fascinating lives. Prince Johann Georg of Saxony would be a great read. It seems not the exception but the norm that manny a fine soldier went over to the service of God. After four years of the most horrific fighting one would persue a life dedicated for peace & spirituality.