Soviet Navy Cap insignia - ID help?

[AJHaslett]

Hello everyone,

Some of you will know me from other forums. I joined GMIC awhile back but have been extremely busy as of late and not had time to participate very much. Hoping that will change now that things are a bit more calm for me.

I'll do a proper intro soon and show some of my collection in the appropriate categories.

In any case I received this badge recently along with some British and Canadian WWII items. I have searched the net with the hope of positively identifying it, to no avail.

It's clearly a navy (or naval related) cap insignia, but I have not seen an exact match. It's very nicely made in gold wire (bullion type) thread on a black wool backing. It's backed by an off-white backing material and is heavily padded giving it a rather 3-dimensional appearance.

I'm guessing WWII or earlier Soviet Navy Officer but would appreciate input from members as I am a bit out of my depths here.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Adam

[AJHaslett]

Here is a view of the reverse of the badge in question.

Cheers,

Adam

[Takc]

Adam, it is the cap badge of ministry of the sea fleet - and it looks like damaged or incomplete.

Should look so:

[Takc]

I just noticed yours is a bit different..

we have different versions of the sea fleet badge or your one is from river fleet.

But why does it have two S&Hs and where's the globe?

I guess it is probably the river fleet visor cap badge.

[AJHaslett]

Hi,

Well your badge resembles this one, but not an exact match as far as I can see.

Mine has a hammer and sickle at the top and not a star, like on yours.

It's not damaged and appears to be complete as far as I can tell. There is some wear but overall condition is very good.

Perhaps mine is a variant...or from a different period?

[Takc]

morflot - sea fleet - aluminium visor cap badge, later version

[AJHaslett]

Hi again,

The globe on mine is smaller, but it is there if you look closely. The hammer and sickle on my globe is almost as big as the the globe itself. Also, there is no "wreath" around it like on yours...

Would you say this is WWII period then?

How scarce are these and any idea on a value?

[Takc]

Adam, looks like your is really damaged - the S&H in the middle must be over the globe. Sometimes at these badges the thread is eaten by larvae or simply rots, this happens.

actually, better (lighted out) pics will help.

[AJHaslett]

No there is no damage to the badge, it's all intact. There is no evidence of anything missing as the remainder of the badge is in very good condition, and I am very familiar with wire badges (just not Russian ones!)

Just a different badge than yours and probably one you have not seen before.

You are correct the bottom H&S is over the globe, it is just very small.

Sounds like it's probably associated with the River Fleet organization, but it's strange there is no star on the top.

I will try to get some better pics, but the light here is not very good right now and the flash on my camera is not cooperating.

[AJHaslett]

In the meantime I've brightened the photo I attached earlier so the detail can be seen somewhat better.

As should be evident, although there is some wear, the badge is complete and in solid condition, no mothing or anything. It simply shows its age.

If I had to guess I would say mine is an earlier example as the quality of construction is very high and resembles that of Imperial German and early Third Reich pieces, and early 20th Century and Victorian British and Commonwealth officers' badges.

Edited March 8, 2007 by AJHaslett

[Takc]

the globe at your badge is just not round as it should be.

or it is a bad pic effect?

[Takc]

look at the left and right sides of the "globe"

Do you see that something is wrong?

I am not telling it is bad or fake or fantasy - it's normal, just saying that it seems to me it has a defect.

very probably the river fleet, as far as their emblem was similar, but slightly different.

[Takc]

I'd say it's not the ww2 period, but later.

My one is of the same quality, and is at the 50 era visor cap with aluminium buttons (which were started to be used somewhere in the 60-ies). probably compiled by the owner, but I have obtained it for 3-5 dollars so am happy to have an original complete rare thing. I can't say they are common, but scarce, if using the undertheredstar.com terminology

try this to get more info

http://www.civil-uniform.narod.ru/sea/mmf-...-1956/Index.htm

http://www.civil-uniform.narod.ru/sea/mmf-...-1977/Index.htm

http://www.civil-uniform.narod.ru/river/1947-1953/Index.htm

[Gerd Becker]

Adam, welcome. Glad to see you over here. I think, we need a Chief Bottle Washer in the Lounge

Gerd

[AJHaslett]

Takc, Thanks for the links...some insignia that are similar but still no match.

I would be surprised if this was not WWII or earlier since it came with a WWII veteran's souvenirs and everything else is from that period.

Gerd, Hi! Nice to see you too. I'll do my best at continuing my Chief Bottle Washer duties here!

I've attached a close up pic of the globe. As you can see it is indeed round but the threads on the left and right sides have darken/worn so it is not as apparent as in the other photos.

I'll be interested to hear from other members if they have seen another example like this or can positively ID it.

What should I ask for it as far as trade value?

Cheers,

Adam

[Guest Rick Research]

It does indeed look closest to the riverine fleet badges shown in A. N. Kutsenko's 1998 "Kokardy" booklet, numbers 4,5, and 6 on page 25 but without the wreath and Republics ribbons of command personnel badges he shows there, and dates early 1960s. From your last closeup, I also can see the "ghosts" where said little wreath surrounding the globe was completely removed from your badge, probably to conceal some lesser damage by stripping out the whole thing.

Our weather just reported YOURS last month was the coldest recorded since French settlement last month. I'm due for the coldest night since 1943 tonight here. Slow? How about glacial. Bleep this "global warming" eh?

[AJHaslett]

Hiya Rick,

It's been bloody freezing here indeed. I've been confined to the indoors for the most part this winter as I'm recovering from a bad injury, I guess the timing for it was as good as possible!

Thanks for your help with this badge. When you say ghosts...do you mean the outer edges of the globe? There is embroidery there and different coloured thread which sort of looks like it may have resembled a small wreath there, however, I can see no sign that there was ever anything between the globe and the large outer wreath. I've looked closely with a loupe and can't see that the wook backing cloth has any stitch holes in the centre at all. There is evidcence of stitch holes and a small bit of thread on the edge of the badge suggesting it was removed from a cap.

What's a fair asking price or trade value in your opinion? Probably going to take it to a swop meet soon.

[RichieC]

It does indeed look closest to the riverine fleet badges shown in A. N. Kutsenko's 1998 "Kokardy" booklet, numbers 4,5, and 6 on page 25 but without the wreath and Republics ribbons of command personnel badges he shows there, and dates early 1960s. From your last closeup, I also can see the "ghosts" where said little wreath surrounding the globe was completely removed from your badge, probably to conceal some lesser damage by stripping out the whole thing.

Our weather just reported YOURS last month was the coldest recorded since French settlement last month. I'm due for the coldest night since 1943 tonight here. Slow? How about glacial. Bleep this "global warming" eh?

Rick,

I have heard of that book that you mentioned about Soviet cockardes...

Where on my Ed-free Earth can I get one whilst waiting for Denis Rodichev's? Can and would you scan the page that you have referenced to show this cockarde with the hammer & sickle atop the anchor?

[RichieC]

BTW, The silvery mercury in my outdoor Ridgewood & Bushwick Coal & Coal Gas ad thermometer reads a comfy -6F outside my kitchen window here in tropical Queens.

The skunk that lives under my porch offered me five bucks to sleep in the vestibule tonight...

[Guest Rick Research]

Igor Moiseyev still has the book, for $12:

http://collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=11056

This is where the wreath has been removed:

you can see the "ghost" of the (( and )) curves, and the base of the wreath left where it is atop the anchor in the circled area.

[AJHaslett]

Ahhh I see (I think), neato. Thanks Rick.

Poor little badge never had a chance. I wonder why they would have done this, unless it was flawed or something as you say. However with the rest of the badge still solid I wonder if there were other reasons.

Perhaps the original owner was an ueber-commie...hence the double hammer and sickle...and a demented hater of wreaths

[Takc]

Rick said exactly what I was talking about, Adam, but you was stubborn enough not to hear me

Thanks you had heard him

now as far as I have bought a new camera, we'll enjoy together, I think.

[AJHaslett]

Yeah, I still don't trust anything from east of the Oder. Old habits die hard I guess.

[RichieC]

................................................

Edited March 10, 2007 by RichieC

[Nack]

Sheesh.

I like your insigna anyway.