Luftwaffe Pilot Observer Badge by Juncker

[Stan]

Whilst in Stuttgart last week for the Arms Fair, I picked up this nice early-style Juncker's P/O badge. It seems to have everything going for it but I was concerned to see the file cuts in the swas. The back has the nice file marks where the centre of the hinge was cut out in-situ.

Comments welcome.

Stan

[Stan]

Reverse,

Stan

[Stan]

Reverse,

Stan

[Stan]

Reverse,

Stan

[ERIC]

Hello Stan,

I have no problem with your badge whatsoever. A superbly finished (LOVE the wreath!) example of an early Juncker 1st Pattern P/O. I have on file another early style Juncker badge, an Observer, with the same exact maker mark.

ERIC

[J Temple-West]

Hi Stan

Absolutely no problem with the file cuts.. typical ?Juncker??But I have a few concerns. The badge just doesn?t sing out to me ?Nice original Juncker P/O? and makes me want to ask questions. ?Could this be a reworked Pilot?s badge??

This is me being overly cautious when I see a piece that?s (IMO) a little less than text book.

The first thing that hit me when seeing this badge was the gilding. It?s probably the photography that makes it look matt, but I see no highlights on either wreath or eagle?

The riveting.. Hard to tell from these close-ups but I?ve not seen these sloppy riveting marks/rivets on a Juncker P/O before, not that it means much, it may have been a bad day at the factory, or just that I haven?t come across many with these traits.

The dark area on the swastika, between the eagle?s talons? found on pilot?s badges.. unusual for a P/O, especially one in this condition.

You, of course, have it in hand and can see things that I can?t. Are any of these worries valid?

Perhaps a shot in different lighting would help to allay any doubts.

I post mine for comparison.

[J Temple-West]

Reverse.

[Steve K.]

It looks like a good badge to me, although the pics aren't the greatest.

I would be concerned that the rivets have been "re-worked" or "tightened" at some point in time.

Is there a pock mark below the eagle's beak? The reason I ask is that I saw a stunning Juncker Pilot badge at a show recently that caught my eye, but upon detailed examination the casting pock marks became evident.

Steve

[Stan]

It looks like a good badge to me, although the pics aren't the greatest.

I would be concerned that the rivets have been "re-worked" or "tightened" at some point in time.

Is there a pock mark below the eagle's beak? The reason I ask is that I saw a stunning Juncker Pilot badge at a show recently that caught my eye, but upon detailed examination the casting pock marks became evident.

Steve

Steve,

I too saw that dark mark below the eagle's beak but it is just a speck of tarnish. The American guy who sold it to me suggested that I clean it with ammonia suds. I have never heard of those before. Can someone suggest a brand name which is available in the UK? The gold is nicely frosted not matt, but could do with a gentle wash as there are aleady some specks of verdigris on the back of the wreath.

Stan

[Steve K.]

Stan,

I would not clean it. As she stands is as good as it gets!!

A very nice addition to any collection!

Cheers,

Steve

[Scott]

Stan, any chance of getting the weight of the badge and dimention of the wreath & eagle?

Scott

[Steve K.]

If this is one of the new generation cast badges, you will be able to see tiny pock marks or a rough appearance throughout the wreath and eagle when you look at it with a 20X loupe.

Cheers, Steve

[ERIC]

I would not clean it. As she stands is as good as it gets!!

Agreed!

If this is one of the new generation cast badges, you will be able to see tiny pock marks or a rough appearance throughout the wreath and eagle when you look at it with a 20X loupe.

Cheers, Steve

There are CAST BADGES out there now that look as good as this?! That is fargen scary!!! Even after taking everything said here into account, I still a fan of this one Stan. JTW, you have every right to be overly cautious my friend - especially when dealing with PO's. Something, my 'gut' perhaps, just liked this one from jump street.

ERIC

[J Temple-West]

A casting? I don?t think so?unless the ?Nasties? have perfected the art of creating stress fractures.

No, my only concern is that the badge has been refinished. Yes, the rivets may well have been merely tightened, but it?s a red flag and this combined with the issue of the over all finish made me stop and take a closer look. Not one of those badges that immediately shouts?Yes, nice piece, no problems!

Stan, as I?ve said, has this piece in-hand, we have only these photographs to go on. I would hope that if we had a different set of pix we would then all be able to go.. ahhhh! Yes, of course! That?s better! As it stands, I have a feeling that assessing this badge on these pix alone is going to divide opinion. To remove any doubt, I would like to see a better set of pix and, if possible, the dreaded weight and measurements?which I think will confirm that it?s not a cast copy.

Over to you, Stan.

[Steve K.]

Yep....I see the fractures now. Good eyes! My 4-week old has me on a 2 hour sleep/awake schedule.....so I'm a bit bleary eyed!

As I said, I like what I see but better pics would be nice. (Eric...yes, the PB I saw scared me because I nearly threw down my money and I had the badge right in my hands).

[Richard Gordon]

Obviously coming in a bit late on this one but I think the badge is good but the rivets give me enough concern that I wouldn't buy it myself. I can't pass opinion on the finish because I do not have a Juncker P/O to compare with.

With the messed rivets I would be worried that it could be an 'upgraded' pilot badge.

I would agree that measurements and weights are definitely needed to dispell the belief it is a casting (which I also believe it is not).

Rich

[Stan]

Obviously coming in a bit late on this one but I think the badge is good but the rivets give me enough concern that I wouldn't buy it myself. I can't pass opinion on the finish because I do not have a Juncker P/O to compare with.

With the messed rivets I would be worried that it could be an 'upgraded' pilot badge.

I would agree that measurements and weights are definitely needed to dispell the belief it is a casting (which I also believe it is not).

Rich

Rich,

Herewith the measurements:

Wreath

Height = 53.2mm

Width = 41.6mm

Eagle

Width = 65.3mm

Swas width = 11.0mm

Weight = 31.8mm

Stan

[Richard Gordon]

Stan

I'll dig out my pilot badge when I get home and will post it's dimensions and weight. In the meantime, I hope others will too.

If these check out, where does that leave you?

Rich

[Stan]

Stan

I'll dig out my pilot badge when I get home and will post it's dimensions and weight. In the meantime, I hope others will too.

If these check out, where does that leave you?

Rich

Rich,

I know the guy well and was given full return rights so its probably going back.

Stan

[J Temple-West]

Having weighed and measured both P/O and PB, the stats above come well within tolerances for the both, except that my P/O is lighter (expected, due to it being an early example, materials used and the early wreath being thinner due to gilding as opposed to heavy plating.) The weight differences suggest to me that this badge is indeed an original Pilot?s badge that?s been taken apart, refinished and reassembled.

I know it?s not proof positive but there is, in my mind, enough doubt where I would want to contact the dealer and ask for a refund.

I know the guy well and was given full return rights so its probably going back.

Stan

I think that's the right way to go, Stan.

[Richard Gordon]

As promised:

My pilot = 28.9g

Wreath 53.2H x 41.5W

Eagle 64.9W

Swastika 11.4

[ERIC]

(Eric...yes, the PB I saw scared me because I nearly threw down my money and I had the badge right in my hands).

WOW! Remind me never to forget the loupe when visiting the local shows! (Probably a good idea to start to bring the pocket scale as well!!)

Having weighed and measured both P/O and PB, the stats above come well within tolerances for the both, except that my P/O is lighter. The weight differences suggest to me that this badge is indeed an original Pilot?s badge that?s been taken apart, refinished and reassembled.

Yes Stan, your weight and measurements taken are comparable to my badges as well. My PB weighs 31.1 grams, and, as in JTW's case, my PO is lighter too, about 2 grams lighter. Given the weight variations and the "tweaked" rivits, I can go along with the refinished/reassembled theory. It does make sense. @ John - best guess - a postwar 'upgrade' to enhance the $$$?

ERIC

(A shame - I REALLY liked this one! )

[J Temple-West]

@ John - best guess - a postwar 'upgrade' to enhance the $$$?

That's how I see it, Eric.