Non-Combatant EK1914

[James Clark]

I wonder if anyone can help me identify the awards on the the ribbon bar in this photo? I think I can get some but lots of uncertainty. I'm guessing the last three are non-German awards. I have blown it up below the picture but it's from a small photo so is a bit blurry.

The wearer is Oberstabszahlmeister zV Johannes Schmidt. That's all I know.

Thanks for your help,

James

[Guest Rick Research]

We don't often see this!

1) Prussian Noncombatant Iron Cross 2

2) prussian War Effort Cross (Kriegshilfdienstkreuz)

3) Hindenburg Cross for noncombatants

4) Hindenburg Cross for Next of Kin so a son was killed in the war

5) ? Third Reich civil service cross (but where is his imperial military one?)

6) ? decoration with crown device

7) ? plain light colored ribbon (1897 Centenary Medal?)

8) ? another decoration with a crown device

I don't find any army Schmidt who was a Paymaster in 1914 who matches. There was a NAVAL paymaster Johannes Schmidt born 1869 who continued on into the Reichsmarine, but his awards don't match either.

I suspect this guy was some other type of military official brought out of retirement as a paymaster in WW2.

[CRBeery]

I thought the ribbon in the button hole was a combatant EK2. Could this be the Prussian general honor medal in first place or is the button hole ribbon something different?

[Paul R]

The button hole ribbon could be a KVK2?

Paul

[saschaw]

The 1st ribbon looks more like a Lippe-Detmold Nichtk?mpfer than a Iron Cross which made sense if the buttonhole ribbon is a EK II. One of the awards with crown might be a Sachsen-Meiningen Kreuz, but cannot say for sure.

By the way, it was banned to wear two different 1934 Ehrenkreuze, but still some did it. If they could have worn both of them, they should have chosen(!) one of them. He might wear two indeed.

[James Clark]

The ribbon at the buttonhole is definitely the KVK - the edge stripes are not the same colour as the central stripe (which is darker).

I also see the two different 1914-18 crosses (for non-combatants and for next of kin). As pointed out above, he shouldn't even have had both, never mind whether he should have worn both. I wondered whether the non-combatant ribbon might have been the 1939 Kriegsverdienstkreuz, but the central stripe looks too wide.

Also, I wasn't quite sure whether that is really a 1938 Treudienst Ehrenzeichen - the arms of the cross look a bit fat. I wondered if it might be another foreign award, although this would mean he had no long service award for anything.

The final three I have no idea about - I thought the crown looked Rumanian or Italian. They look the same, so are perhaps two different classes of the same foreign award. In this case the plain ribbon would have been another foreign medal which he received before getting the second grade of this award. But I'm just guessing now.

Thanks for all your help!

[Guest Rick Research]

There was no regulation stating that only one Hindenburg Cross could be worn in the case of Next Of Kin. He was entitled to both.

Definitely a KVK from the buttonhole. He must have been in his 70s. Too old for World War ONE and BACK for World WWar TWO.

[CRBeery]

I think I need a bigger computer screen. I thought ribbon #3 was the KVK medal - the little round one. Maybe if I am good for a while Santa will put me back on his list.

Edited April 2, 2007 by CRBeery

[saschaw]

There was no regulation stating that only one Hindenburg Cross could be worn in the case of Next Of Kin. He was entitled to both.

Sorry Rick, there was. It was against the regulations to wear both, even if you had a "right" for both ...

Durchf?hrungsverordnung zum Stiftungserlass (taken from "Dombrowski: Orden, Ehrenzeichen und Titel"):

Ein Vater, der Frontk?mpfer gewesen ist und zwei S?hne im Weltkrieg verlorden hat, kann nach seiner freien Wahl entweder das Frontk?mpferkreuz oder das Elternkreuz aber nur eines von beiden beantragen. Entscheidet er sich f?r das Frontk?mpferkreuz, so hat das die Folge, dass es nach seinem Tode zwar seinen Angeh?rigen verbleibt, von ihnen aber nicht getragen werden darf. Wiill er nach seinem Tode seiner Frau die M?glichkeit zum Tragen des Ehrenkreuzes verschaffen, so muss er das Elternkreuz beantragen.

[James Clark]

Yes - this is the regulation I had in mind. Even if someone was entitled to both the 1914-18 Cross for Combatants and also the Cross for for next of kin, they were only able to apply for one version, so had to decide which one they wanted. The entire regulation covering this award is very specific and quite complicated!