Black Eagle Order breast star

[GdC26]

Can I invite your opinions, please, on this black eagle order breast star offered by Kai Winkler?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards,

Sandro

[GdC26]

Can I invite your opinions, please, on this black eagle order breast star offered by Kai Winkler?

Many thanks in advance.

Regards,

Sandro

[Wild Card]

Hi GdC26,

What I see, looks pretty good; but if you can give me a couple of days, I will have an absolulely legitimate piece in that should provide us with some good comparison photos. Very interesting that your piece has one of those mysterious "control" numbers.

Regards,

Wild Card

[GdC26]

Hi GdC26,

What I see, looks pretty good; but if you can give me a couple of days, I will have an absolulely legitimate piece in that should provide us with some good comparison photos. Very interesting that your piece has one of those mysterious "control" numbers.

Regards,

Wild Card

Many thanks, Wild Card, look forward to the comparison pics when you have received your star.

Regards,

Sandro

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Sandro:

If not mistaken (which I sometimes am), I believe that I see the mark "S. F. S." stamped on the reverse center. I don't recall which firm this is, and I am at my office w/o my reference books. Does anyone recall who this maker is?

The center parts appear to be possibly gilded-silver (or bronze) and not gold. If so, this would make the star probably a post-1916 piece.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Edited April 6, 2007 by Schie?platzmeister

[GdC26]

Hello Sandro:

If not mistaken (which I sometimes am), I believe that I see the mark "S. F. S." stamped on the reverse center. I don't recall which firm this is, and I am at my office w/o my reference books. Does anyone recall who this maker is?

The center parts appear to be possibly gilded-silver (or bronze) and not gold. If so, this would make the star probably a post-1916 piece.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Schie?platzmeister,

Many thanks for your input.

You are absolutely correct concerning the maker mark. I enclose some higher resolution samples of the pics posted earlier. Do they help at all?

Regards,

Sandro

[GdC26]

Pics 3 and 4

[GdC26]

And the center section

[Komtur]

According to Peter Sauerwald / Orden und Ehrenzeichen No1 / 1999 the Maker is Samuel Friedeberg und S?hne, Berlin, Unter den Linden 40/42. In 1892 Gebr?der Friedl?nder took over this firm. In my opinion this star looks not bad, but you can find some differences to the well known originals by Wagner & Sohn. The problem will be, to find another Friedeberg-star for comparison.

[GdC26]

According to Peter Sauerwald / Orden und Ehrenzeichen No1 / 1999 the Maker is Samuel Friedeberg und S?hne, Berlin, Unter den Linden 40/42. In 1892 Gebr?der Friedl?nder took over this firm. In my opinion this star looks not bad, but you can find some differences to the well known originals by Wagner & Sohn. The problem will be, to find another Friedeberg-star for comparison.

Many thanks Komtur, that gives my search a bit of direction.

Regards,

Sandro

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello again Sandro:

Thank you for the close-up photographs.

With the close-ups, it now looks to me as though the center pieces are probably gold (I was mistaken regarding this earlier).

It also looks as though the pin is gilded. The engraving for the numbers on the reverse looks period. Everything looks good regarding this star as far as I can tell. This could very well be an authentic pre-1892 Samuel Friedeberg und S?hne, Berlin star.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[GdC26]

Hello again Sandro:

Thank you for the close-up photographs.

With the close-ups, it now looks to me as though the center pieces are probably gold (I was mistaken regarding this earlier).

It also looks as though the pin is gilded. The engraving for the numbers on the reverse looks period. Everything looks good regarding this star as far as I can tell. This could very well be an authentic pre-1892 Samuel Friedeberg und S?hne, Berlin star.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Many thanks, SPM, I will do a bit more research, but this is starting to look interesting.

Regards,

Sandro

[Komtur]

@GdC26

Today I talk to a person who saw the star in Stuttgart. He told me that 3 "experts" had 3 different opinions...

One was sure it is an original, one was sure it is a fake and one wasn?t sure at all

He told me too the engraved Number means the owner e.g. his descendents where not obliged to give the order back to the Prussian General-Ordens-Kommission.

There was in the Thies auction in July 2006 a collar of the Red Eagle order with an grandcross of Friedeberg marked S.F.S. and with engraved No 20708. So that would be a good sign for the originality of the black eagle order breast star or a sign of cleverness of the criminals...

Sorry, I know these informations are not really useful

Edited April 8, 2007 by Komtur

[Wild Card]

Hello GdC26,

I did not think about it when I made the above promise; but my star is is by Wagner, so I am afraid that it will not be very helpful for a comparison to yours. Because it has since arrived home, if you don?t mind I will post some pictures of it anyway. This star was awarded to Arthur Prince of Connought.

Sorry that I could not have provided more helpful pictures.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Obverse detail.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Reverse.

[Wild Card]

Detail of hinge/pin assembly. I think that the difference of the upper part of the pins is interesting.

[GdC26]

Detail of hinge/pin assembly. I think that the difference of the upper part of the pins is interesting.

Many thanks, Wild Card and Komtur, for your latest input. I spent a day going trough the web, Thies catalogues, books and german magazines trying to locate a similar star or even a similar Ritzmmarke for S. Friedeberg und S?hne, but sofar without luck.

Wild Card, interesting point about hte hinge attachment. What do you make of the difference in style between your star and the one shown in the pics that started the thread?

Regards,

Sandro

[Komtur]

The good news first: I?ll get some pictures of an original S.F.S. star in a few days. So sorry for the bad news: these pictures will be sended by one of the above mentioned experts. Unfortunately he?s the one who characterized the diskussed star as a fake because of his knowledge of one original S.F.S. black eagle order breast star (the one he will send me the pictures). The pictures are sended by the Deutsche Post. I hope with fresh horses.

best wishes

Komtur

[GdC26]

The good news first: I?ll get some pictures of an original S.F.S. star in a few days. So sorry for the bad news: these pictures will be sended by one of the above mentioned experts. Unfortunately he?s the one who characterized the diskussed star as a fake because of his knowledge of one original S.F.S. black eagle order breast star (the one he will send me the pictures). The pictures are sended by the Deutsche Post. I hope with fresh horses.

best wishes

Komtur

Many thanks, Komtur, I appreciate all the help you have given sofar.

And even if it should turn out the star that started this thread is not, in the end, what it purports to be, we (or I at least) will have learned something.

Best wishes,

Sandro

[Wild Card]

Wild Card, interesting point about hte hinge attachment. What do you make of the difference in style between your star and the one shown in the pics that started the thread?

Regards,

Sandro

Well, I think that these flared pin tops were just a preference by the jewelers. As you know, the vast majority of pin/hinge assemblies just have the straight pin running up to the hinge. See the example, in this case by Godet, below.

[Wild Card]

Now, my guess about the flair is that if, or as, the loops sewn into the uniform expanded, the flair would absorb the expansion and then the star would not move out of line. Another example, for comparison, is the pin assembly on a Freidlander Red Eagle grand cross star shown below - haven?t had this old friend home for a long time, thanks for the incentive. For what it?s worth, it looks to me that there is a slight difference with the one presented above (in post #1) in that this one flares out and then curves back to the hinge line.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Wild Card

[GdC26]

Now, my guess about the flair is that if, or as, the loops sewn into the uniform expanded, the flair would absorb the expansion and then the star would not move out of line. Another example, for comparison, is the pin assembly on a Freidlander Red Eagle grand cross star shown below - haven?t had this old friend home for a long time, thanks for the incentive. For what it?s worth, it looks to me that there is a slight difference with the one presented above (in post #1) in that this one flares out and then curves back to the hinge line.

Hi Wildcard,

I'm sure the flaired end may have a role in stabilizing the star when worn, but I have a fair number of high ranking imperial officers tunics with relevant loops, and they tend to have upper loops in the same width as the lower loops. Of course that doesn?t mean the star cannot wriggle its way down through sheer weight, as you say, thereby widening the upper loop slightly and stabilizing the star. But inormally, upper loops are not so wide as to fully accomodate the flaired portion of the needle.

Incidentally, I noticed the Winkler star is on hold. Bugger, I was contemplating a move dependign on Komtur?s pics (which I would still very much like to see, Komtur, so when you get them .....). If someone has a "spare" original black eagle order star , or spots an original for sale, I will be much obliged. And if anyone would like to see one of the two tunics I own that once belonged to persons awarded the Black Eagle Order, please let me know, and I?ll post pics.

Regards, and thanks again to all who helped this make an excellent thread with lots of good info.

Sandro

[Komtur]

@Sandro

The pics arrived today and I will post them immediately. There are two problems: first my english is sometimes not sophisticated enough to discuss these special problems. Furthermore I am not allowed to name the source of the pictures. But I?ll tell you the story and hope you?ll understand what I try to say. The pics are from a huge archive. The owner of this archive sends me the fotos, he is the one, who see the star in Stuttgart and judge it as a fake. But interestingly the fotos are made in 1994 by the other person seeing the star in Stuttgart too, who think it?s an original one . The S.F.S. star on this pics is from the collection of the Kunstgewerbemuseum Berlin. Star silver, center gold, 87,5 x 87,5 mm, 75,4 g, engraved S.F.S. (unfortunately in the text to the fotos there is no information where), the laurels are in silver. The quality of the pics is not the best and the limited space here is another problem.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Komtur

[Komtur]

... and revers