and the next of the mysterious medal bars....

[HeikoGrusdat]

here is the next medal bar I want to show you... some of you will remember it from the last Thies auction. The combination is very interesting and again the back is dark blue..... waiting for your comments...

[Stogieman]

I think the PCOwX & RAOwX are just like a NC EK2... if it's not mounted on a bar, there's no point in owning one...

Nice Navy Bar!

[saschaw]

Hmmm, Heiko. Some things I do actualy not like with this bar:

- Roter Adler-Orden which suggest quite a long service, but no Centenar or long service cross. Still fine.

- A pre-war Roter Adler-Orden and other officer's awards, but a Sachsen-Meinungen Medaille! I think there can only be the cross, if I am informed correctly.

- Just a IInd Class Knight of the Albrechtsorden, though presumably (at least) Hauptmann (again the Red Eagle order).

- A Crown Order IVth class with swords awarded for 1st World War? How many of those were awarded, hum? A Hohenzollern might be muuuch more likely ...

I hope to be wrong and the bar to be fine, but I'm doubting it ...

[Paul C]

I have to agree with Saschaw. I remember seeing the bar and having the same reaction. Also a Crown Order 4 with swords and no China or SWA medal is very, very odd.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Paul C

[HeikoGrusdat]

OK guys....exactly THE discussion I wanted to start for that bar...

My thoughts were the same in all points but there are possibilities...

I have seen several bars from colonial soldiers who not served in China or DSWA but in some other german colonies wearing a KO4X or RAO4X but NO colonial medal... I have seen bars from soldiers of the colonies with no colonial medal (1912) on it but the document for it came with the bar.... and remember that there was no official colonial medal for colonial service during ww1...

if the RAO4 was a civil award before ww1 could he have started the war as a Unteroffizier/Sergeant/Feldwebel rank promoted to Offiziersstellvertreter/Leutnant rank later during the war? Meiningen medal as "normal" soldier, AO and KO later as officer...??? What if the Meiningen cross has been replaced with the medal???

Many possiblilities... keep your thoughts coming....

Heiko

[Ulsterman]

To be honest I can not comprehend this bar with that Saxe Meinigen medal. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I can't for the life of me explain #2 and that medal-even if it was a kick-rump navy Luftschiff/Submarine/ engineer/gunner-pilot hero of some sort-and that is supposing that this is 'the top bar" of a two piece set.

But it certainly look original by the fading, ribbons etc.

Could it have been messed with?

Also-(I can't find the thread but Rick R. posted the order of precedence from a 1939 catalogue reprint) isn't the precendence out of order? That' seems a minor issue in this instance though.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

Pre-war Red Eagle 4 for a Captain/Major level MILITARY (Crown 4 X on combatant ribbon) person... demoted to noncomissioned rank (Meiningen MEDAL) and then back up again for a Lieutenant's grade Albert X (surely not TWO colonial decorations for the VERY few non-Colonial Medal actions pre-1914)?

Uh, no.

The combination is impossible nonsense.

[HeikoGrusdat]

now that`s interesting that one Rick says "nice navy bar" and one Rick says "impossible nonsens"....

come back to the red eagle... can`t it be a pre war CIVIL award??? In my eyes the bar itself is 100% original and not faked, would there be more sense with other awards and orders on the ribbons???

[Guest Rick Research]

One thing that is quite obvious is that the Red Eagle has been completely polished up-- quite a shiny contrast to all that other dingy stuff.

[Dave Danner]

Assuming the wear on the ribbons is even, but the wear on the medals is as inconsistent as Rick L. notes, the medals were likely remounted on a ribbon bar from which other medals had been removed. Note that the FKE appears to have a hook, but some of the others look sewn on.

Also, note the wear a little higher on ribbons #2 and #6. This could be from the crowns of a Hohenzollern Knight's Cross and a Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War, a combination which would make more sense than the Crown Order and Medal for Merit in War. Assuming medals were swapped out, an Albrechtsorden Knight 1st Class, more consistent with the Red Eagle, might have been replaced with the 2nd Class.