Authentic CE Juncker Prussian Pilot's Badge

[Gunther Beckmann]

An authentic example is available on Bill Shea's site, (The Ruptured Duck) for $1,095. (Just go to Medals and Badges, it's the first one..)

That's cheap!

I don't need one, or I'd be all over it ..

[Stogieman]

I'm not so sure of this one...

[Gunther Beckmann]

What do you see? Is it the stamping on the reverse? You have peaked my curiosity..

Edited April 17, 2007 by Gunther Beckmann

[Luftmensch]

HORRIBLE hallmarks for one...check that moon.

[Stogieman]

At first glance, you see what looks like a typical badge. But the hallmark (name, 800, moon) are not what they should be. I can show you a montage of about a dozen different examples, which represents a sample of hundreds... all identical. None look like this. The detail of every photo does not look consistent with known originals. Now, this is based strictly on the photos shown. IMO, if you want to sell a 1.4K badge for under market.... you better work real hard on proving it's legit.... especially in this age of copies everywhere. These photos may just be that. Crappy photos. Or, they might be good photos of a crappy badge....

[Ferg1]

Hi guys, IMO this badge is 100%. In my years of collecting I have seen this variant of Juncker marking several times on badges that are without question 'good'. It is ,admittedly ,far more unusual than the ' normal' ones but it is only the crescent that is different ,the 800 and name are the same as usual. Check the details on the obverse with another C E Juncker badge ( if you have one) and the details are exactly the same .Same goes for the back plate and pin. Some nice frosting remains too. Ferg1.

[Stogieman]

No, the details may be the close, but the clarity and quality are not.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884.html

I'm no expert, but here is my contribution. The above link will show many various crown, moon, and 800 markings used in Germany after 1886. I think it is impossible to say that only one form of stamping is legit. Surely, Juncker didn't possess only one crescent moon stamp to use on all of the pieces they produced. From the photos on the site, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Stogieman]

Be my guest!

[Mike Huxley]

Be my guest!

Agree 100% with Stogie . The quality does not seem to be right for this manufacturer. But poor photo's may be the cause of concern as well. In MHO if somebody wants to splash out that sort of money on something that may not be what it seems .... Then go ahead. I for one would NOT buy this piece.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Mike Huxley

[Luftmensch]

Concur.

Ever since Herr Stogiemann had the balls to assert that crowns were falsch, I have concentrated on and paid close attention to the badges I have been fortunate to get direct from families in groups--12 so far. About 8 were Junckers, and not one had a crown, or a mark like the open moon above, which to me resembles recent fakes.

Given their cost today, I will go with undoubted examples, even if my sample size is a little small.

Here is the latest family Juncker I picked up in a complete group to a Saxon pilot...

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Agree 100% with Stogie . The quality does not seem to be right for this manufacturer. But poor photo's may be the cause of concern as well. In MHO if somebody wants to splash out that sort of money on something that may not be what it seems .... Then go ahead. I for one would NOT buy this piece.

I personally am not looking to buy any flight badge at this time.

My concerns are that a piece is being dismissed as bad based on these photos. Unless one was there at the time of production, handled every single flight related badge produced that is still in existence, and has proof of the type and number of symbol die punches used...then I don't possibly see how such iron-clad unshakable opinions can be formed based on such photos. Even in our modern day highly technical methods of production, we still have variances produced. Coin minting is a perfect example.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record but we can't think in a collector mentality 90 years after the fact, instead, we need to think in terms of practicality and good old fashioned common sense. I cannot imagine a jewler saying "No Fritz, we can't use that moon punch because it is a little different than the other one. We wouldn't want to confuse any future collectors."

The piece might be proved bad if handled, and examined under a magnifying glass, or it may be proved good (Ithink good). It just seems that whenever a piece comes long at a reasonable price, it is automatically attacked. I know I'm not making any friends in this posting, but that is the way I see it.

[Mike Huxley]

I personally am not looking to buy any flight badge at this time.

My concerns are that a piece is being dismissed as bad based on these photos. Unless one was there at the time of production, handled every single flight related badge produced that is still in existence, and has proof of the type and number of symbol die punches used...then I don't possibly see how such iron-clad unshakable opinions can be formed based on such photos. Even in our modern day highly technical methods of production, we still have variances produced. Coin minting is a perfect example.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record but we can't think in a collector mentality 90 years after the fact, instead, we need to think in terms of practicality and good old fashioned common sense. I cannot imagine a jewler saying "No Fritz, we can't use that moon punch because it is a little different than the other one. We wouldn't want to confuse any future collectors."

The piece might be proved bad if handled, and examined under a magnifying glass, or it may be proved good (Ithink good). It just seems that whenever a piece comes long at a reasonable price, it is automatically attacked. I know I'm not making any friends in this posting, but that is the way I see it.

IMPERIAL QUEST,

Did you read what I siad ... Pictures could be the problem??????? I also said that going on these pictures I would not buy this badge as described.

All I'm saying is ... If you want to say accept it ..then it's your choise. BUT NOT FOR ME.

I have, what I know to be, true Period Junckers pilot and observers badges and I will only buy on the things that I know. Go ahead ... take a chance, if you want to. But NOT FOR ME.

[Luftmensch]

It just seems that whenever a piece comes long at a reasonable price, it is automatically attacked. I know I'm not making any friends in this posting, but that is the way I see it.

The logic is simple, Steve. There are known exemplars. I'll hang onto my money until one comes along. In terms of the pursuit of knowledge, no one is saying definitively this didn't exist, but that it doesn't conform to known examples that have come from a family-owned group. That's the only unshakeable test.

That was the acid test Bob Pandis and Rick used.

I'm open to correction...

Rgds

John

[Stogieman]

It's really quite simple. The quality of the badge being shown isn't this good.

[Stogieman]

Or like this:

[Stogieman]

If you examine the badge in question and compare it point by point, you'll see what I I'm saying.

[Steve K.]

The badge in question at Ruptured Duck is not a badge that matches the quality of C.E. Juncker flight badges from that era.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

The only real differences I see are not in the badges being discussed, but in the opinions being expressed here To each thier own.

[Steve K.]

Hi Steven

Sorry I didn't make a more poignant comment about the badge in question, but it seems to me that you have your mind made up about it. However, I wanted to add one more comment that, if nothing else, it may help others to weed out the bad stuff.

Beyond the moon mark (although that was my first red flag), beyond the lack of details (look to the plane and the crown), the patina SCREAMS false to me and I'm 1000% sure it is a chemically applied treatment to add "age" to the badge. The "darkened" recesses of the wreath are alittle here, alittle over there, some splash of it here....once you know what it looks like, it will never fool you again. The key to it is to look for dark recesses that suddenly become brilliant silver again in a relative short distance (and being on the same plane). REAL 800 silver patina does not look like the badge in question. Strike three!

Kindest Regards,

Steve

[Stogieman]

A montage for your review. I can show many more identical ones, if you'd like.

[Stogieman]

Now the mark in question:

[Luftmensch]

Now the mark in question:

That's not a moon...that's an axe blade...

[Stogieman]

Also note the extremely unusual shadow mark behind some of the letters. In all my time studying these badges, I have seen exactly two (2) mis-struck Juncker maker marks. They didn't look like this odd shadow at all.