Heer Austrian in the German Army - Can anyone help with more info?

[JimZ]

Inside of tunic and lining

[JimZ]

Detail of tunic inside and lining: What was that long pocket used for? Are those holes around the tunic waiste for clipping the belt? The belt as no clips and neither does the tunic....

Edited January 13, 2008 by JimZ

[JimZ]

Detail of tunic inside and lining: tail of tunic

[JimZ]

Detail of tunic inside and lining: collar

[JimZ]

Lining pierced by medal bar. - I know... not that interesting for most!!!

[JimZ]

So.... the belts and the uniforms are all new posts...... anything you can throw my way in the form of additional info will greatly be appreciated. I will next post his bayonet, and some service pics of his. And that should complete pretty much everything I know about him. I still wonder if it is possible to research him, find his unit, ranks etc from Austrian Army till Wermacht and POW as well as trace his movements. I await any info eagerly!!!

Look out for the final posts as soon as I take pics (mebbe even tomorrow).

Jim

[Guest Rick Research]

The dark green and silver bayonet knot is for all ranks of ARMY NCOs, I think.

That is also what the tunic is. It is an ARMY pattern M1943 tunic... that appears to have been colored GREEN (somehow-- without changing the lining colors).

You know, I can't recall the last time I saw a "Year Zero" Prisoner Of War suit like this. Virtually all of them must have been worn to rags and thrown away in the hard years afterw the war. This is "Zeitgeschichte" that is increasingly difficult to find any trace of.

There was a POW camp at the other end of the county from me in both World Wars. When I was a boy, in the 1960s, "thrifty" local farmers were still wearing cast off U.S. First World War uniforms that had been stenciled "PW" for Afrikakorps prisoners in the Second War.

Nobody saved such things... which is why they are so RARE now.

[JimZ]

Rick,

Any reason for it being dyed? Would it have been grey originally? If so would the flak epuallettes posted earlier have matched this tunic?

There seems to be no trace of the lining being removed at all and I believe silk would also colour if dyed. I also would think that he probably wore his belt after the war judging from its de-nazification. I also know that his bayonet (which I will soon post) was used to kill or skin rabbits (or so is the story according to his son!) But I can hardly imagine him wearing a Nazi uniform tunic in post war Austria in an area controlled by the Russians. So unless there is a valid reason why it may have been dyed green should I consider it as being a home job for post war use?

You also say it is an ARMY tunic. Again I believe him to have always been Luftwaffe flak? Would they wear regular army tunics?

What exactly makes this particular tunic so rare?

Thanks for your info.... I am finding this really enlightening!

Jim

[JimZ]

Oh... and to leave no stone unturned:

When I was handed over the various insignia, gulls, epualettes, pips etc, they came in this bag. I kept the bag but never thought anything of it. Is this just any bag or is there some surprise there....?

[Guest Rick Research]

I think you are right that he was ISSUED this tunic returning from captivity in Italy. That may well be ITALIAN uniform green, over the German color. Purpose? To make clear, on sight, that he WAS a disarmed ex-combatant by turning his German uniform into another color.

Clothes and shoes were impossible to come by. My Chetnik refugee friends from when I was in college actually sewed "blankets" out of an abandoned German naval insignia factory's stock of cloth sleeve ratings in Bavaria after the war. That was still all they had when they came over here. When I knew them in the 1970s, they were still using pieces as tablecloths!

So whatever there was, was worn out.

I've never heard of anyone SAVING returned prisoner clothing. Rare because almost every piece would have been worn to rags and thrown away.

[JimZ]

So.... much to my wife's annoyance I have taken the following pics for posting. I'll need few sec to edit but they'll be on site today rather than tomorrow.... Thanks for bearing with me!

Jim

[JimZ]

First up, his luftwaffe (I believe) bayonet. I am afraid the spring mechanism is jammed and I do not have its proper sheath. Any generous contributor out there with an extra sheath?

[JimZ]

If its an army tunic, do any of the epualettes, collar patches that belonged to the same vet fit on it? I sometimes wondered if I should put the epualettes and medals plus belt on an army tunic, when I am not sure of the reason for its colour. I somehow have doubts as to whether I dress it up or not. Moreover, if flak had different tunics then it sure becomes a pointless exercise.

Any thoughts?

Jim

Edited January 16, 2008 by JimZ

[JimZ]

I have looked at the jacket again. I have tried to see if there were any stains from dyes and this does not appear to be the case. The lining is pristine. It has not been removed and the the jacket's colour is consistent. I would conclude that IF the material was ever dyed, then this happened before the tunic was tailored.

I was once told by a collector of german uniforms that this jacket is a late war production manufactured from material captured in Italy. This was communicated to me before I knew that the veteran was captured in Italy. If it has anything to do with that I do not know.

What I do know is that very close inspection of the jacket reveals no evidence on the threads, lining or even the outside of the tunic itself of having been dyed.

The mystery surrounding this tunic continues....

Jim

[JimZ]

I am reviving this thread from three years ago in the hope that some new members might go through it and perhaps, provide some new details on any of the items displayed...as well as answer many of the questions that I asked.

All info is, as always, very much appreciated.

To collect the info provided so far:

Started career as a "gunner" in the old pre Anschluss Austrian artillery

Got promoted to full Corporal.

Recipient of Austrian medal

Wears trade patch of an armourer to Hermann Goring Division

Promted to Feldwebel and Oberfeldwebel Flak

Awarded war merits cross and 4 year service

Was captured as a POW in Italy (if in Hermann Goring Division and captured in Italy probably captured pre 1944 when I believe the HG division was pulled out of Italy)

Was kind of hoping that more info would have come to light from the various bits and bobs…..

Jim :cheers:

Edited June 4, 2011 by JimZ

[speedytop]

Hi Jim,

the text from post 81, my interpretation:

Zur Erinnerung an durchkämpfte Tage

beim Lehrgangskommando für Flak _ Dr. Geer(?)

Werkst.Pers. [Werkstattpersonal] und Fa. G. ?. Hohmann.

Erlangen-Bruck, 20.10.43

Hense, Waff.Ob.Insp. [Waffenoberinspektor]

Front center could be the Waffenoberinspektor.

Uwe

[JimZ]

Thanks Uwe. Could you translate the text please as I only parially understand it.

I take it that this places my man in Erlangen-Bruck in 20.10.43. Is Waffenoberinspektor a title or a rank? If a title, what is his rank? Would have said from the collar tabs (although not clear in the photo) that he is probably a Hauptmann.

Edited June 5, 2011 by JimZ

[speedytop]

Hi Jim,

I have my first problem with the Dr. Geer, I have no explananation.

Waffenoberinspektor is a rank, see for the rank insignias "Oberinspektoren of the departments":

http://www.wwiidayby...e_officials.htm

With "Werkstattpersonal" are meant the ordnance sergeants, but it is not meant "your" man, because he don't have the badge for the "Waffenpersonal", for "Flakartillerie" the two crossed canon barrels (see the man in front left.

It could be, that your man was commanded to a special course as additional instructor.

Rough translation: "In memory of fought out days with the course command for anti-aircraft"

Uwe

[JimZ]

Hi Uwe,

Thanks again for your kind reply. If the patch displayed in post 26 is the correct trade patch, then he probably did earn it at some point or other.

I say at some point or other as he is seen in photo 74 mounted on a horse with a similar patch, on his left sleeve instead (unless the photo is inverted). However, I think that he might be in Austrian uniform in that picture albeit what seems to be sidecap with german insignia. No one ever confirmed what the uniform is. Could that be the same patch or could it be anything else.

In photo 80, you are very right to comment that he wears no patch on his left sleeve when even the person behind him is wearing it - it can just be seen. There seems to be no other evidence in the few photos I have, of him wearing the patch.

If you have the time to scan through the thread and provide any more information

Jim :cheers:

[Gordon Craig]

I guess its just some technical notes he may have jotted down..... any interesting info here?

JimZ,

The writing on the back of the card appears to be the specifications for the search light and the sound locating equipment shown in the picture.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2007 at 08:56, JimZ said:

First up - his Identification document in the Austrian army back in 1934. Any info - Unit? Rank? (Kanonier?) My german is indeed non existent <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> Do the stamps say anything?

 

JimZ,

The ID document indicates he was assigned to I/s.A.R. which indicates 1st Batterie of a heavy Artillery Regiment. I can not read all of the stamp at the bottom of the page but part of it reads "Feld Artillery Batterie 1" which would be "Field Artillery Battery 1". The rest appear to designate the regiment. I suspect this was a training organization when he first enlisted. The term "Bedienungs-Kanonier" is probably best translated in English as "Canonier" or "Artilleryman".

Regards,

Gordon

Edited September 18, 2018 by JimZ

[Gordon Craig]

JimZ,

The Austrian medal is the Class II Long Service medal for enlisted men and NCOs for 5 years service in the Austrian First Republic (1920-1938). He appears to have served just long enough to qualify for the award of this medal. Post WWII Austria is referred to as the Second Republic.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Again... this medal came in a paper packet with stamps. Somewhere along the line some green paint seems to have spoilt the ribbon. Court mounting on this medal is of a lower quality than the previous one.

JimZ,

During WWII German mmedals were commonly issued in paper packets with the medal designation printed on the outside of the packet. The owner probably just put the court mounted medals back into the packets he had received them in.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

2 artillery badges. Are these austrian or Germany army? Quality again appears to be very different between the two badges.

Obverse on top row... reverse on lower row

JimZ,

I beleive these to be Austrian artilleryman arm badges. The difference probably indicates they were for wear on different uniforms. Compare the shapes of the cannons on these badges with the shape of the cannons on the Austrian Artillery buttons that you posted pictures of.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited June 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig

[Gordon Craig]

2 buttons... again, these seem to be artillery but I have no clue what they are and which army they belong to. My guess again is that these are Austrian.

JimZ,

Yes these are Austrian artillery buttons from the First Republic. This style of button was used well before WWI.

Regards,

Gordon