Identification of numbered Victoria Order

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I know it's a long shot, but maybe somebody among you has access or has the complete list by numbers of the Royal Victorian Order. I am actually after of identify who was the original owner of the CVO numbered 308 (marked on the center medallion on the reverse).

Here the details of the medal in German and a picture of the medal bar for civilians (Frackspange):

? Preussen, Roter Adler Orden 4. Klasse, letztes Modell, gek?rnte Arme (OEK 1704)

? Preussen, Kronen Orden 3. Klasse, 2. Modell, Gold und Emaille, Hersteller FR (OEK 1757)

? Oldenburg, Haus- und Verdienstorden Herzog Peter Friedrich Ludwigs, Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse, Gold und Emaille (OEK 1516)

? Russland, St.-Anna-Orden 3. Klasse, Gold und Emaille

? Grossbritannien, K?niglicher Victoria Orden, Ritterkreuz (CVO), Silber vergoldet und emailliert mit Tr?gernummer 308

Thanks in advance for any inputs you can give me on the above-mentioned British order.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited May 19, 2007 by Claudio

[Ed_Haynes]

Not a CVO (which is a neck badge), but a MVO (4th class, LVO since 1984) breast badge. (I am amazed how much problem British multi-classed orders seem to present, even for folks to whom a CVxZr4mS is bread and butter.)

In case you are interested, current "book value" on a MVO (4th) is in the ?300-350 range.

Now the bad news. While rolls for the RVO numbers almost surely exist in the orders chancery in London, they are unavailable. Decades of asking have produced the same answer: We are a working office and do not exist to do research for medal collectors.

Still, a nice group.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[DutchBoy]

A truly beautiful group!

My knowledge of Imperial is not great, but is this a bar made up in a civilian style where the most important order is on the RIGHT and descends to the left? That would make this a Prussian bar and not a British one right?

[Claudio]

@ Ed: I have already been told that the orders' chancery in London is not very cooperative in such matters. Maybe there is still somebody among the collecting community who has direct access to their archives. I find it a bit stupid to preclude such info which should be of Public interest. For example the Kriegsarchiv in M?nchen has been very cooperative, efficent and very fast in mailing me photocopies of a Military career of a Bavarian WWI officer; I didn't even have to pay for the shipping costs. I would have gladly paid up to Eur 50.- for such info.

@ DutchBoy: it's Prussian bar since such civilian bars were worn on a tuxedo. Also the mounting is typical German as well the company which mounted this bar (Godet & Sohn). All the enameled crosses are in GOLD.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Ed_Haynes]

@ Ed: I have already been told that the orders' chancery in London is not very cooperative in such matters. Maybe there is still somebody among the collecting community who has direct access to their archives. I find it a bit stupid to preclude such info which should be of Public interest. For example the Kriegsarchiv in M?nchen has been very cooperative, efficent and very fast in mailing me photocopies of a Military career of a Bavarian WWI officer; I didn't even have to pay for the shipping costs. I would have gladly paid up to Eur 50.- for such info.

The main difference, Claudio, is that the Kriegsarchiv is an archive and the orders chancery is a working office of government. It is, however, immensely rare for any archive, anywhere, to be willing to do the research FOR the researcher, rather than make available the facilities for them to do their own research. Archivists are usually not willing to serve as research assistants (and I don't blame them). You should be grateful that your Kriegsarchiv is the exception to the norm.

Efforts by generations of British medal collectors to gain access to the RVO records have failed. This is complicated, of course, by the fact that the order is in the personal gift of the sovereign. But other royal records from Windsor have been available. But the orders chancery folks are very stereotypic bureaucrats, though they are right that doing research for others is not their job; they are, however, not willing to make these records available for people to do their own work (they claim their offices are very cramped). Very frustrating, but that's the way it is, and as with many things in the UK there's no sign of change any time soon.

[DutchBoy]

Claudio, thanks for the info. Again, a splendid group!

Ed, as usual European bureaucracy at its finest!

[Guest Rick Research]

George HAD the answer, since he made a private gift (a tinsel breast star of either the Prince Regent/George IV's or the Duke of Wellington's that they wanted, if I remember correctly) to the Royal Collection at Windsor, and in return they PERSONALLY informed him of the recipient of this and the other Royal Victorian Order medal bar he had. Quid pro quo-- even Royal backs can be scratched.

He HAD that information, but NOW of course it is impossible to recover. George's collection records are GONE.

I knew the name but regret that I simply cannot recall after decades of many precisely similar Wonder Bars who it was. I'd suggest going through the entire Orders Almanac but I cannot recall if it was a pre- or post-1908 bestowal, so all that additional effort would be completed wasted if it was given out in 1911 or whatever. My best recollection is that he was a senior Reichs level civil servant and not a "diplomat." And I seem to recall that the original recipient IS in the 1908/09 Orders Almanac but not necessarily already with the Royal Victorian Order listed then.

My understanding of the Royal Victorian Order (is it even awarded anymore, now that that bizarre thing with the Navajo blanket ribbon is handed out?) is that the records are NOT "public," since it is a DYNASTIC and not STATE award.

[Ed_Haynes]

George HAD the answer, since he made a private gift (a tinsel breast star of either the Prince Regent/George IV's or the Duke of Wellington's that they wanted, if I remember correctly) to the Royal Collection at Windsor, and in return they PERSONALLY informed him of the recipient of this and the other Royal Victorian Order medal bar he had. Quid pro quo-- even Royal backs can be scratched.

Amazing. I do not know of a SINGLE British medal collector who has been able to get ANY RVO information out of the orders chancery (where these records are kept), though it isn't all that hard to get information from the archives at Windsor Palace or even from the Royal Collection (George VI was a medal collector).

My understanding of the Royal Victorian Order (is it even awarded anymore, now that that bizarre thing with the Navajo blanket ribbon is handed out?) is that the records are NOT "public," since it is a DYNASTIC and not STATE award.

The RVO is certainly still awarded. I am sure Lizzy gave some away to stable boys at Churchill Downs. (Her great-grandfather dropped them on everyone he met, even doormen.) And it has no relationship to the Queen's Service Order (if that is what you are trying to describe, Rick?) which is awarded in New Zealand (only), in Her capacity as Queen of New Zealand.

[JBFloyd]

There is a roll of honorary (i.e., non-British) members of the Royal Victorian Order in all grades, sorted by the year of award. This class of RVO was passed out to an array of recipients, from railway traffic managers to senior military officers on occasions such as Edward VII's visit to Berlin and various funerals and weddings in Germany and Britain.

[Ed_Haynes]

There is a roll of honorary (i.e., non-British) members of the Royal Victorian Order in all grades, sorted by the year of award. This class of RVO was passed out to an array of recipients, from railway traffic managers to senior military officers on occasions such as Edward VII's visit to Berlin and various funerals and weddings in Germany and Britain.

Yes, but I don't think the book you allude to keys it to number, does it, Jeff?

[JBFloyd]

No insignia numbers, unfortunately. However, it does give you a leg up on using the rank lists and court handbooks in that you'll get a short list of German recipients of the MVO. The military officers could be weeded out fairly quickly with this combination of awards. The civilians would generally appear in some civil/court list, I would assume, as this would appear to belong to someone of a notable position (the stationmasters and railway traffic directors usually got lower level German awards, in my experience).

A sample from Edward VII's visit to Berlin in February 1909 shows the following received the MVO:

Lt Eberhard Livonius, 1st Regiment of Dragoon Guards

Hubert Augustus Frederick William Kuntze, Asst Commissioner of Police

Ferdinand Neumann, Clerk Comptroller to the Household

George Ernest Emil Seiler, Secretary, Master of the Horse Dept

Joseph Rollfing, Personal Attendant to the Emperor of Germany

Reinhold Rieger, Inspector of the Castle, Berlin

Hermann Brell, Electrical engineer at the Castle

William Seibels, Secretary, Office of Works, Berlin

Paul Adolphus Jancke, Inspector of the Royal Gardens, Berlin

Rudolph Buttmann, Inspector of the Royal Gardens, Charlottenburg

Philip Weigand, Superintendent of the Cellars

Constantine Hoffman, Traffic Superintendent, Prussian State Railways, Berlin

Gustavus Neumann, Secretary, Master of the Household Department

George Richard Sennewald, Administration of the Prussian State Railways

Fritz Seida, Traffic Superintendent, Prussian State Railways, Rathenow

Peter Weber, Traffic Superintendent, Prussian State Railways, Herbesthal

[Guest Rick Research]

That would INDEED be a help. Is it in print?

Joseph Rollfing was actually a gunmaker!

[Ed_Haynes]

The books:

GALLOWAY, P., STANLEY, D. & MARTIN, S.

Royal Service, Volume One. The Royal Victorian Order; The Royal Victorian Medal; The Royal Victorian Chain. 1996. xii, 364 pages. 16 plates (10 in colour). Casebound.

The definitive history of the Royal Victorian Order, The Royal Victorian Medal and The Royal Victorian Chain. Tracing the institution and development, the recipients, removals, and the insignia of each.

RISK, J., POWNALL, H., STANLEY, D., TAMPLIN, J.

Royal Service, Volume Two. 2001. 368 pages, illustrated mainly in colour. Casebound.

Continuing the substantive appointments and awards (recorded in Volume I) up to 4 August 2000 and records the honorary appointments to the Royal Victorian Order and honorary awards of the Royal Victorian Medal from 1896 to 2000. It also deals with the Royal Family Orders, Commemorative Medals, Coronation and Jubilee Medals, and Badges of Office.

A delightful pair, by reputation, though I do not have them (I should). Spink has both in stock (whence I have lifted this information), at ?60.00 and ?45.00, respectively. Other standard dealers should have then too.

[JBFloyd]

The source in this case is "Royal Service", vol II, by James Risk, Henry Pownall, David Stanley and John Tamplin, published by Third Millenium Publishing in the UK in 2001. I don't find any copies listed on www.abe.com.

[Ed_Haynes]

And there is a third volume too. (The only one I have found on abe.com.)

Edited May 19, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[JBFloyd]

The 2-volume set is a beautifully done work, compiled with the support of the Chancery of Orders. The authors are a Who's Who among medallic researchers. If they'd only gotten the insignia numbers (I suspect they asked and were told the same thing everyone else was).

[JBFloyd]

The only collector I know of who has gotten info was a general officer who was able to get a tour of the Chancery and asked his host a direct question about a numbered piece. Not a position most of us will ever be in.

[jerome]

the names in the last message (JBFloyd) are for MVO 5th class.

these men have been awarded MVO 4th class during King Edward VII visit to Berlin on 12.02.1909 (303rd to 317th of the MVO 4th class in "Royal Service II" page 204) :

von Tschirschky und B?gendorff, Gardes du Corps

captain Hermann Augustus Frederick Charles Baron von Esebeck, attached to Master of the Horse's Department, 1st Brandenburg Dragoon Regiment n?2

captain William von Goerne, 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

captain Oskar von Harder, 2nd Regiment of Foot Guards

captain William Marschalk von Bachtenbrock, 1st Regiment of Dragoon of the Guard (Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland)

captain Frederick von Stumm

captain Hugo Janke, commanding 10th company Fusilier Guards "Prince Henry of Prussia" Regiment

lieutenant Hans Wolf von Pogrell, 1st Regiment of Dragoon of the Guard (Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland)

lieutenant Count Wendt zu Eulenburg, 1st Regiment of Guards

lieutenant Gisbert Charles Frederick Dodo Baron zu Innhausen und Knyphausen, Gardes du Corps

Charles John Henry Minte, Director of Postal Service to HIM

Otto Hermann M?ller, Director of the Telegraphic Service to HIM

Eugene Charles Frederick Henniger, Chief of the Special Police

Geheimer Hofrath Richard Buro, Secretary to the Lord Steward

Hofrath Augustus Charles Henry Wasmund, Superintendent, Master of the Horse's Department

[Ulsterman]

Oddly enough, her Majesty is also a quiet medal collector. Try writing to her directly. You may just get a response.

[Claudio]

In this case IMHO the recipient of the medal bar must be within one of the 6 civilians!

Charles John Henry Minte, Director of Postal Service to HIM

Otto Hermann M?ller, Director of the Telegraphic Service to HIM

Eugene Charles Frederick Henniger, Chief of the Special Police

Geheimer Hofrath Richard Buro, Secretary to the Lord Steward

Hofrath Augustus Charles Henry Wasmund, Superintendent, Master of the Horse's Department

For sure he was a wealthy person since all the enamalled orders are made of Gold and Godet (very expensive dealer at those times) put together the bar.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

Claudio: I think the names above are from ONE randomly chosen sample of awards, not of ALL of them to Germans over years and years and years.