Medal Barbatie si Credinta with swords

[Kev in Deva]

This type is to be avoided at all costs, its a cast fake, look at the drill holes in the ribbon mounting bar that were never fully fretted out.

The squashed look of the swords is another give away. Note the casting crack to the rear, and the poor definition of the detail.

the ribbon is original though.

Sellers have been known to say its been made by a WW2 veteran to replace the ones the communist took, hardly,

as they are easily to be found.

Kevin in Deva

[Jacky]

Just looks like the king had suffered from small pox

Indeed, these "pits" are a very very clear sign that this medal was cast and just has to be avoided,

except when one is in need of a ribbon, but still..

Then one should only pay for the ribbon, not for the whole sh*t

[Igor Ostapenko]

this to be a rare version without swords from the 1913 Balkan Campaign.

It might denote the award was to a NON-Combatant.

EARLY VERSIONS - HALLMARKED !

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Igor,

thanks for the information that there are hallmarks,

it probably could mean that early pieces are made in real silver!!

And now I have to wonder are the I class in silver & Gold plated or with a high Gold content

Kevin in Deva

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hello,

I see my medal bronze and silver plated and gold plated .

[boonicootza]

The medal was awarded in three classes, bronze, silver and gold.

At first the medal was only issued without swords, so, for all who received it in the second Balkan war, a clasp was issued "Campania 1913" which means 1913 Campaign.

A mint 1st Class example from my collection

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Boonicootza

welcome to the G.M.I.C., and thank you for the information that you supplied.

Anything new we can learn about Romanian Medals is always very interesting.

Do you have any knowledge of the Royal Decrees giving the regulations and institutuion

details of this or any other of the Royal medals??

Kevin in Deva.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Carol I]

Do you have any knowledge of the Royal Decrees giving the regulations and institutuion details of this or any other of the Royal medals??

The Medal for Valour and Faith was established in 1903 through the High Decree 2812 in order to reward distinguished conduct in police duties. With the Second Balkan War of 1913 it began to be awarded to military personel. The distinction between police and military medals was the addition of the "1913" clasp to the ribbon. Then, when Romania entered WWI, swords were added to the medals awarded to military personel through Royal Decree 3429 of 21.12.1916.

[Carol I]

It's quite a strange medal as it was awarded to the Allied forces in WW1 ?nd to the Germans in WW2.

Why do you find this strange, Jacky? It was a distinguished conduct medal awarded to Romania's own and allied military personel. In WWI it was the Entente, in WWII the Germans and the Soviets (I do not know of any soviet name for this low ranked medal, but soviets have indeed received Romanian orders in the last years of WWII).

[Kev in Deva]

Why do you find this strange, Jacky? It was a distinguished conduct medal awarded to Romania's own and allied military personel. In WWI it was the Entente, in WWII the Germans and the Soviets (I do not know of any soviet name for this low ranked medal, but soviets have indeed received Romanian orders in the last years of WWII).

Hallo Carol I

again thanks for the information abou this medal, I believe Jacky means strange as in the circumstances that Romania awarded the medal to the British (and possibly Russians) in WW1, when they (Romania) and the British were fighting the Germans, Austrians and Bulgarians.

Then a few years later the Romanians are awarding it to Germans & their partners, for Service against the Russians, and their Allies Britain, France, etc.. etc..

Surely not many European awards fall into that catagory??

With regards this medal as a Royal Romanian medal was it actually awarded to Soviet personel after 1944 to 1947 or was a Romanian Communist type of medal issued.

Kevin in Deva

[Carol I]

again thanks for the information abou this medal, I believe Jacky means strange as in the circumstances that Romania awarded the medal to the British (and possibly Russians) in WW1, when they (Romania) and the British were fighting the Germans, Austrians and Bulgarians.

Then a few years later the Romanians are awarding it to Germans & their partners, for Service against the Russians, and their Allies Britain, France, etc.. etc..

Surely not many European awards fall into that catagory??

Then it is the history that is unusual, not the medal.

With regards this medal as a Royal Romanian medal was it actually awarded to Soviet personel after 1944 to 1947 or was a Romanian Communist type of medal issued.

Up until 1947 the soviets received royal awards. The communist-style awards appeared only from 1948 on.

[Kev in Deva]

Then it is the history that is unusual, not the medal. beer.gif

I think thats what Jacky wanted to say, but it must be remembered with the diverse membership we have here at G.M.I.C. English is not always the first language of the poster.

Up until 1947 the soviets received royal awards. The communist-style awards appeared only from 1948 on.

Has anybody got any pictures of Soviets wearing the Romanian Royal Awards, such as the "Barbatie si Credinta" ??

Kevin in Deva.

[Carol I]

I think thats what Jacky wanted to say, but it must be remembered with the diverse membership we have here at G.M.I.C. English is not always the first language of the poster.

No problem.

Has anybody got any pictures of Soviets wearing the Romanian Royal Awards, such as the "Barbatie si Credinta" ??

It's not the Medal for Valour and Faith, but something much higher: Gen. Shumilov wearing the second class of the Order of Michael the Brave with swords in a most unusual way (from www.warheroes.ru).

[Carol I]

Another one: Gen. Kamanin wearing the third class of the Order of Michael the Brave with swords and several badges of the Order for Aeronautical Virtue (from www.warheroes.ru).

[Igor Ostapenko]

Russian soldiers receive medals " Medal Barbatie si Credinta" with swords 2nd class in 1917 .

I must to see in Russian archive for more information

[Jacky]

Hi Carol and Kevin,

yes it is indeed strange in it's circumstances and yes I linked the medal to the circumstances, thus might have given an quite black/white image of my opinion. It was indeed just the history of this medal and not the medal itself.

Kevin

Thank you for being "the devil's advocate"

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Carol I]

yes it is indeed strange in it's circumstances and yes I linked the medal to the circumstances, thus might have given an quite black/white image of my opinion. It was indeed just the history of this medal and not the medal itself.

I see, Jacky, but then the same can be said about all the Romanian awards, not only the Medal for Valour and Faith. Besides, Romania is in no way a singular case with respect to its alliances along the years. Quite similar things can be said about Italy and Japan and their awards. Like Romania, both these countries fought on the side of the Entente in WWI and then in WWII they were allied with Germany. Furthermore, Italy changed sides towards the end of WWII, as did Romania.

[Carol I]

Some more names of British awardees of the Medal for Valour and Faith (from the page of the Worcestershire Regiment):

Clark, Henry Cook, C.Q.M.S. (A/C.S.M.) - 1st Class

Hemming, Raymond, Sgt. (A/C.S.M.) - 2nd Class

Smith, Alfred, Sgt. - 2nd Class

[186bncef]

I have been looking at different examples of this Romanian medal for some time. To me, the suspender between the medal and the oak leaf ribbon suspension looks like a WW2 type, although I could be wrong. I thought that earlier WW1 types had a barrel type of suspender such as is shown in the attachment, although to be frank, I have only seen this in the 2nd and 3rd class medals.

[Carol I]

As an interesting note, the Medal for Valour and Faith appears to continue the tradition of a short lived medal from the time of Prince Alexandru Ioan Cuza. That medal, named Medalia pentru Devotament şi Curagiu (Medal for Loyalty and Courage), was created in 1864 and awarded to policemen and civilians in recognition of distinguished activity during the catastrophic floods that hit Romania during that year. The establishment of the medal was however not finalised during Prince Alexandru Ioan's regin and subsequently it was not included in the national system of awards. More details about it can be found here.

[Igor Ostapenko]

terrible quality

[Igor Ostapenko]

real SILVER !

[Odulf]

Thank you all for adding to this quite interesting and long going topic, to which I want to add my observation that some medals (with swords) have the hinge above the swords and others below the swords - thus direct to the medal.

Is there any indication to which connection dates to a certain period, or was it up to the makers?

[Da Bomb]

My relative received the "Barbatie Si Credinta" i have the medal which is silver with crossed swords (no makers name) and no ribbon (Does anybody have ribbon for this, as i cant find any suitable replacement.)

I also have the original certificate that came with the medal, it was issued in 1920 and was part of a number of awards released at the same time and approved by the King, the listing for the recipients is published in the london gazette

Wording on the certificate, some of it is a little hard to read so apologies if this does not translate correctly!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ministerul de Rasboui

Brevet

Noi ministru de secretar de stat la

departmentul de rasboui adeverim ca prin

Inaltul decret No. 371 din 5 februarie 1920

Majestatea la regale binevoit a conferi

medalia pentru Barbatie si Credinta

cu spade clasa II-a caparalului G.F. ELSDON, din armata

Britanica (6934)

Ministru de Rasboui (signed but not legible)

Directorul superior al personaluliu (signed but not legible)

No. 43941

anul 1920 luna februarie iua 5

-----------------------------------------------------

Corporal G.F. Elsdon (6934) of the Rifle Brigade was my relative, he was awarded the 1914 star with rose, War medal, Victory Medal with M.I.D. and the Barbatie si Credinta 2nd class. he survived the war, although he was taken out of line 4 times, i have an old postcard with him in his "Hospital Blues" uniform.

I also have the M.I.D. certificate and he was mentioned by Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig on 7th Nov 1917 and signed by Winston Churchill Secratary of State for War 1st Mar 1919.

If anybody has any idea what he was awarded a Romanian award for, please let me know, and if you know what the 2bn Rifle Brigade were doing in Nov 1917 that would be very nice as well!

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Da Bomb,

its possible it was given in kind to the British by the King of Romania

via the Romanian War Ministry, in turn the British War Office selected

who was to receive the award.

By the way its been re-instituted since 2000 here in Romania

for the Romanian military, seeing as they have been in service in Iraq,

and currently in Afghanistan, I attach a picture from my reference files.

As can be seen its in the "Bling-Bling" car key ring material style.

Kevin in Deva.