CBE

[Alex K]

Bit bored at the moment so I thought I would post my latest Aquisition, A CBE 1st Type complete with full neck ribbon and fixings, just like when His/Her Royalness's would have plonked it over your head

regards

Alex

[jasmor58]

Alex,

What brilliant pictures of your latest aquisition. Thanks for showing them.

Regards,

Jim Morrison.

[Chris Boonzaier]

A fine looking medal... not AS nice as a MC in a black background ;-) ... but a good looking gong indeed.

[Alex K]

Hi gentlemen, thanks for the comments. Unfortunately, I don't have an MC yet, but hope to get one someday. This is my first British Decoration, my other British pieces are campaign medals, not a lot of those either yet. Unfortunately the price of campaign medals, like other nationalities have sky rocketed lately.

regards

Alex

[deptfordboy]

Hey Alex, nice medal. This got me thinking, how are these and other British gongs in fact presented? I'm pretty sure her Maj doesn't put it over your head, is it dished out to the recipient on a cushion? Just curious,

Gilbert

[Alex K]

Hi Gilbert, actually I think she does still hand them out personally, At Buck Palace, with an investiture, together with other gongs like MBE's OBE's etc. I think you wait in line to be called and if you are being Knighted and given, say a CBE, you wait until your'e called, kneel down and she taps you on the shoulder with her ceremonial sword, have a quick chat, and hey presto, you've got your medal, Don't quite know if she actually puts it round your neck any more or just hands over the box with the bauble in it.

regards

Alex

[Ed_Haynes]

Nice one.

Rarely, if ever, would there have been any kind of royal (or other) presentation ritual for a commander grade (the "C") level (CB, CBE, CSI, CMG, CIE, etc.), as only at the "K" level (KCB, KBE/DBE, KCSI, KCMG, KCIE, etc.), where there was knighthood involved, was any sort of dubbing ritual involved. Of course, the "G" awards entailed more circus (GCB, GBE, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, etc.). This dubbing could be conducted by the monarch or their deputee. In many cases, however, these things were just sent out by registered post and you signed a receipt, and that was all the "bestowal" you'd get.

[Alex K]

Hi Ed, interesting, I'm obviously living slightly in the past Why do people who are receiving New Years, Queens Birthday Honours etc still go to Buckingham Palace?, I thought that was the whole point of the procedure?

regards

Alex

[Ed_Haynes]

Hi Ed, interesting, I'm obviously living slightly in the past Why do people who are receiving New Years, Queens Birthday Honours etc still go to Buckingham Palace?, I thought that was the whole point of the procedure?

regards

Alex

What I was talking about is what was done in the past, pre-WWII. Maybe now, where there are fewer awards to give out, as there's no empire in which to bestow the Order of the British 'Empire', and the monarch has rather less to do, maybe she does give out all the lowly "C" awards and even the bottom-feeding "O" and "M" awards. It would fill up her time. Don't know. I do know the policy from earlier days better, when if there was no knighthood involved (a "G" or a "K" or even a lowly knight bachelor), the recipients could expect their awards in the post unless they really whined and moaned (or had connections) to have it presented by a 'someone', though not always the king.

Gallantry awards, of course, were something else, and somebody usually presented them, though hardly always the sovereign.

[Alex K]

A case of "Not what you know, but who you know"!

thanks for the info

regards

[Ed_Haynes]

A case of "Not what you know, but who you know"!

thanks for the info

regards

The problems, by the way, really came up with the creation of the Order of the British Empire, which represented a massive restructuring of the way honours happened and were seen. It was a revolutionary British order (if that is not a contradiction in terms): (1) it was about MERIT not birth; (2) it was arranged in a CONTINENTAL five-class structure (the Royal Victorian Order doesn't count here, as it was a dynastic order, and those transplanted German royals could do as they wished and no one cared as it wasn't central to the 'system'); (3) it was open to bizarre and scary groups, like women and businessmen; (4) it was awarded freely, in large numbers, too freely as it developed; and (5) while it never did, it was intended to end when the Great War ended, to be an order with a fixed lifespan. Even beyond the oddly and sadly tattered name, it remains a puzzle among British orders.

[Alex K]

But surely, even the Order of the British Empire is not, in my opinion totally "Class" or social standing democratic, as I can't imagine old Joe Postman or similar receiving higher levels of the various orders, more like an MBE.

Thats possibly the problem with the current Honours system, I believe at one stage there was a growing belief that the whole lot should be scrapped and replaced with a totally democratic system, genuinely based purely on merit, but what do you replace it with?, and would it have the same meaning as the established ones in peoples minds?

Alex

[Ed_Haynes]

But surely, even the Order of the British Empire is not, in my opinion totally "Class" or social standing democratic, as I can't imagine old Joe Postman or similar receiving higher levels of the various orders, more like an MBE.

Thats possibly the problem with the current Honours system, I believe at one stage there was a growing belief that the whole lot should be scrapped and replaced with a totally democratic system, genuinely based purely on merit, but what do you replace it with?, and would it have the same meaning as the established ones in peoples minds?

Alex

Sure, but in the early 20th century, the idea that anyone not of "family" or engaged in business in any way would be awarded any honour at all (except, perhaps, a baronetcy or knight bachelor, both of which had always had implied price tags attached) was scandalous. So much of the problem in the recent discussions of the honours system -- with much 'harrumphing' heard from self-designated traditionalist graybeards -- stems from the ignorance (1) that there never has been an honours 'system' frozen in absolute policy or unchanging time and (2) that in so far as there has been a 'system' it has been constantly shifting as political and cultural values changed (as they always have and always will, whether these graybeards like it or not).

In the context of the early 20th century (and maybe even the late 20th century) and as compared to the other orders, the Order of the British Empire was radical, revolutionary, almost socialist. It was intended to be all about merit, as oposed to the other orders that were never intended to have anything at all to do with merit.

[Alex K]

Sure, but in the early 20th century, the idea that anyone not of "family" or engaged in business in any way would be awarded any honour at all (except, perhaps, a baronetcy or knight bachelor, both of which had always had implied price tags attached) was scandalous. So much of the problem in the recent discussions of the honours system -- with much 'harrumphing' heard from self-designated traditionalist graybeards -- stems from the ignorance (1) that there never has been an honours 'system' frozen in absolute policy or unchanging time and (2) that in so far as there has been a 'system' it has been constantly shifting as political and cultural values changed (as they always have and always will, whether these graybeards like it or not).

In the context of the early 20th century (and maybe even the late 20th century) and as compared to the other orders, the Order of the British Empire was radical, revolutionary, almost socialist. It was intended to be all about merit, as oposed to the other orders that were never intended to have anything at all to do with merit.

I take your point and agree that it is most probably the one order which out of all of them, which is the most egalitarian. As a side issue, where does that leave the "Order of Merit" which as I'm sure you'll know, is at the personal bestowal of HM, and is surely for "Merit", as displayed, this week? when it was bestowed on the founder of the Internet, Sir Tim Berners-Lee, who, I assume was just an "Ordinary" person?

Regards

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6750395.stm

[Ed_Haynes]

The OM is indeed a special case, has always seemed to me a conscious effort to have a British civil Pour le Merite. Whille I'd question how many of the honours (beyond the RVO) are really in the sovereign's control (at least since the mid-19th century), the OM does at least have "merit" in its name, though with a restricted and very focused definition.

[Alex K]

Ed, Interesting hypothesis, with which I must admit, I can't dissagree with at present. The OM is, or is supposed to be on paper at least, a reward granted by the sovereign at her/his discretion, without any governmental input (Interference) and at the sole discretion of the sovereign. That being said, I think, and understand that IMHO that may not always be the case, which, in the end brings me back to the points I raised earlier about it being a case of "Not what you know, but who you know" I fully concur with you that the current system may not in practice operate that way, although it should in theory, be universal.

regards

Edited June 15, 2007 by Alex K

[Megan]

Actually, the majority of UK orders are presented by a senior member of the Royal family at an event called an Investiture. A whole series of these are held after the publication of each Honours List, and military decorations awarded in the interim are folded into the programme so that their recipients too are honoured in this way.

The whole procedure lasts about an hour and a half- so it is a fairly streamlined although formal event. All the awardees are lined up in the order of precedence of what they are going to receive. If you are going to get an award that is worn on the chest, they fit a special hook to your clothing to make it easy to attach - no fiddling about trying to pin it on!

The only citations read out are those for the Victoria Cross or the George Cross. Otherwise only the name and the award are announced. A good trick is to take the London Gazette with the relevant Honours List along, so you can follow the action.

People who are receiving a knighthood kneel on a footstool and are actually 'dubbed' with a sword - light tap on each shoulder, right then left - by the Royal Personage. You then get bedecked with the insignia to go with your knighthood. A lady receiving the equivalent - title of Dame - is not dubbed and doesn't have to kneel down.

If you are receiving a decoration worn around the neck - such as the CBE that started this thread - it is literally hung around your neck if you are male. If you are female, you receive the decoration mounted on a bow and hooked onto your coat. Oddly enough, if you are a female member of the armed forces, you are presented with the 'female' form of the award at your Investiture, but are expected to wear it 'male-style' (i.e. a neck badge around the neck not on a bow) when in uniform.

If you visit the Royal website - http://www.royal.gov.uk/ - you can usually find some pictures and sometimes even a video clip of recent Investitures.

[Jacky]

Thanks for the good hint megan, I have taken a look there, the loop for the ribbons look absolutely ugly, but time-wise is it a wise decision, otherwise her majesty would have to stand firm for more than one hour! Which is quite a long time for such a fragile lady of her age, but her character is absolutely stunning! She just keeps going....

but, for now, here is the link to the video.

Video investitures

And, what very nice is, is that they provide a transcript of the video, as I'm deaf myself, it's very nice to be able to have a transcript.

That's something for which I can applaude the British, as the netherlands are quite hesitant to introduce more and more awareness for the deaf and those hearing-disabled.

20 Investitures are held at Buckingham Palace each year, and one at the Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh.

For many of those who are to be honoured, and for the guests that come with them, this is the first and only time in their lives that they will be received by The Queen in a Royal residence.

Before they are presented with their honours by Her Majesty, recipients attend a briefing from the Lord Chamberlain's Office.

[investiture briefing from the Lord Chamberlain's Office] "Ladies, a little curtsey if you will, gentlemen a little bow, and straight away move forward to the dais. The Queen is on the dais, you do not go onto the dais."

[Once the National Anthem has begun] Honours recognise achievement in all walks of life and are given on the advice of the Prime Minister's Office. The Queen, as 'Fountain of Honour' in the United Kingdom, is responsible for awarding these honours.

[The Queen's voice] "Investitures are traditional, and I'm always absolutely fascinated by the people who come and all the things that they have done. Some of them are very cleverly discovered. I think that's very important, that the system does discover people who do unsung things that perhaps the local people know about but nobody else does, and I think that's very satisfactory. This is also meant to be a pat on the back and I think people need pats on backs. It's a very dingy world otherwise."

[Voices of recipients] "It's nice to be recognised for anything you do, but to be recognised at this level is particularly important."

"I think it very rare to see the palace operating in the way that those great paintings show us palaces operated in the last century and the century before that. And I think it's the spectacle, plus, I think, meeting some very special people."

Edited June 28, 2007 by Jacky