GSM and WWII Group to a civilian

[geoff]

Hi all, first time posting for me so here goes. Picked up a WWII Group with miniatures a number of years ago in a Brixham antique/house clearance shop. The actual GVI GSM, with bars for PALESTINE and MALAYA, is named to a MR.J.R.HARRIS [The R of MR is superscript and underlined] and is accompanied by the 1939-45 and Africa Stars with Defence and War Medals, my question's are: does anybody out there own a civilian GSM of this period? I have asked at a number of militaria fairs but the dealers I have questioned couldn't help and had never seen one to a civilian, the naming on the GSM appears to be the correct style for the period. Is it possible to authenticate it's issue and if it is, how do I go about it?

Sorry unable to attach pictures at present they are all over 65K If anyone is interested I can email photo's if required.

[geoff]

Hi all, first time posting for me so here goes. Picked up a WWII Group with miniatures a number of years ago in a Brixham antique/house clearance shop. The actual GVI GSM, with bars for PALESTINE and MALAYA, is named to a MR.J.R.HARRIS [The R of MR is superscript and underlined] and is accompanied by the 1939-45 and Africa Stars with Defence and War Medals, my question's are: does anybody out there own a civilian GSM of this period? I have asked at a number of militaria fairs but the dealers I have questioned couldn't help and had never seen one to a civilian, the naming on the GSM appears to be the correct style for the period. Is it possible to authenticate it's issue and if it is, how do I go about it?

Just sorted the picture kb's thanks to the resizing article on the Software Upgrade & Computer Assitance forum.

[Hyperfocal22]

This may just be a wild guess but in the medical profession Mr is a standard term, I lifted this from the Wikipedia.

In the United Kingdom, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand surgeons are distinguished from physicians by being referred to as "Mister.

Perhaps you man was a surgeon in the military, others who have known medals to a surgeon can confirm this or shoot it down in flames.

[geoff]

Thanks for the new thread! I hadn't considered your suggestions it opens up a few more doors knowing that Victorian medals usually showed the profession of the recipient i.e. Surgeon, not sure whether the trait was carried on into the 20th century or as you say "Mr" or as in this case"M^R" as the new prefix for Surgeon. The mind boggles

Many thanks

Geoff

[Michael Johnson]

Military surgeons would show R.A.M.C. Perhaps a political officer of some sort. NGOs such as the Salvation Army, Y.M.C.A. etc would probably include the organization, but since I don't think I've ever seen one, I can't verify this.

[geoff]

Military surgeons would show R.A.M.C. Perhaps a political officer of some sort. NGOs such as the Salvation Army, Y.M.C.A. etc would probably include the organization, but since I don't think I've ever seen one, I can't verify this.

Hi Michael and thanks for your suggestions. I have had quite a few comments away from G.M.I.C. but (behold the ultimate truth) nobody has ever seen one to a civilian! I wonder if this makes it a rarity ? anyway, thanks again and all the best.

Geoff.

[FireMedals]

I'm not a general collector of British medals, but I seem to recall an article in an old OMRS Journal about the GSM and how some specialized civilian types; electronic tech's, factory reps, etc., who were directly assigned to units could qualify for the GSM. I believe the majority of such recipients were RAF aircraft technicians who were doing work the regular RAF people weren't trained for.

I have two GSM's in my collection to RAF and Army fire brigade members, and I'm pretty sure one was a civilian. However, both are shown as fire service on the rim lettering. Haven't tried to research them since the new open archives policy kicked in.

FireMedals

[Guest WAR LORD]

Another point of interest is the manner in which they are mounted. The GSM should be on the right. The assumtion could be made that this was indeed a group to a Millitary person, who had been demobed, then secounded to duties in the Military as a specalist. My main conclusion would be a Police officer. Both bar represent insurection and intereigation was a major part. One further long shot, a Jewish vollenture, not British, after the War end, stay in Palistine, then going to Malaya.

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually, the order is correct. The "Palestine" clasp is for pre-war service. Post-war service is the "Palestine 1945-48" clasp.

[Paul R]

If the metals were awarded or replaced after his service, would they use "Mr." instead of the member's rank?

[Ed_Haynes]

My guess is that he was a civilian administrator of some sort (though not police) in pre-war Palestine, went into uniform for WWII and didn't escape before getting dragged off to Malaya. When the rolls for the "Palestine" clasp come available (soon?) answers may come. Until then, all we can do is guess. Though checking a pre-war Palestine civil list might be an interesting exercise.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[geoff]

My guess is that he was a civilian administrator of some sort (though not police) in pre-war Palestine, went into uniform for WWII and didn't escape before getting dragged off to Malaya. When the rolls for the "Palestine" clasp come available (soon?) answers may come. Until then, all we can do is guess. Though checking a pre-war Palestine civil list might be an interesting exercise.

Thanks Ed, and to all respondants, the replies have been fascinating, I like Ed's suggestions and will keep my ear to the ground for the issue of the "Palestine" clasp rolls, again many thanks for everybody's input.

All the best

Geoff.

[Graham Stewart]

Awards of campaign medals to civilians still go on to this day as a good friend of mine who works in G.C.H.Q. and who recently did a stint with the military in the Green Zone, Baghdad(not Basra), was recently awarded an Iraq medal. Before proceding there he had to under go some basic military training and wore military uniform. Not sure if he did weapon handling though.

Graham.

[Ulsterman]

any chance he was a newspaper reporter?

I know of at least one OTC chap who was in Ulster for a few months who got the GSM in the late 1980s. His medal named "Cadet" though.

[geoff]

Awards of campaign medals to civilians still go on to this day as a good friend of mine who works in G.C.H.Q. and who recently did a stint with the military in the Green Zone, Baghdad(not Basra), was recently awarded an Iraq medal. Before proceding there he had to under go some basic military training and wore military uniform. Not sure if he did weapon handling though.

Graham.

Hi Graham, thanks for your response. I have a couple of friends who have civilan First Gulf medals, ex RAF working out there when the Gulf war kicked off, they were seconded by the RAF until their safe evacuation could be carried out. With the items I listed I have received some interesting threads to follow, yours now include, interestingly though, I am still a little confused where to start with my research, Ed did provided good information about the coming rolls for Palestine, Kew isn't that accessible for me! as with a lot of collectors I rely heavily on the internet and clubs like the GMIC and its members for information. I am aware there were civilian medals issued but they are like the proverbial 'Rocky Horse S**t' to track down, anyway thanks again

All the best

Geoff.

[geoff]

any chance he was a newspaper reporter?

I know of at least one OTC chap who was in Ulster for a few months who got the GSM in the late 1980s. His medal named "Cadet" though.

Hi Ulsterman, thanks for your reply and interesting suggestion, I suppose there is every chance he was a reporter I just wish I could obtain some information to prove it, you have to admit that the posting has created some debate and conjecture! all of it very interesting.

Thanks for the input

Geoff

P.S. Anyone out there have a medal to 'Newspaper Reporter'

[Ed_Haynes]

I have seen quite a number to reporters in the pre-1914 period. They are rare and quite sought after. I have also followed the debate (in India) as to whether they were or ought to be qualified for medals and under what conditions; at least in India, there was a general sense that they didn't deserve them, but that politics would get them for them anyway.

Post-WWII, things have gotten pretty sloppy all over, and anyone, military or civilian, who has heard that, some place, some time, shots may just have been fired in anger now seems to rate a medal (or six).

[Graham Stewart]

Geoff,

Best of luck tracking down civvy medals and if I remember rightly you'll be looking towards Falklands War medals too as all of the civvies on the Navy's R.F.A.'s and Merchantmen would have been awarded them as well as the N.A.A.F.I. staff. Wasn't one of the latter awarded a gallantry medal for manning a gpmg while under air attack in San Carlos Bay? Also all of the larger R.N. ships had Chinese civvies on board and am sure they would be entitled to a gong. Now that would be a find, but would it be in stamped in English or Chiness characters.

Don't know if you have this, but here is the link to the London Gazette;-

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp?webType=0

Graham.

[geoff]

Geoff,

Best of luck tracking down civvy medals and if I remember rightly you'll be looking towards Falklands War medals too as all of the civvies on the Navy's R.F.A.'s and Merchantmen would have been awarded them as well as the N.A.A.F.I. staff. Wasn't one of the latter awarded a gallantry medal for manning a gpmg while under air attack in San Carlos Bay? Also all of the larger R.N. ships had Chinese civvies on board and am sure they would be entitled to a gong. Now that would be a find, but would it be in stamped in English or Chiness characters.

Don't know if you have this, but here is the link to the London Gazette;-

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp?webType=0

Graham.

Hi Graham. thanks for the link, I have used the Gazette before in other research, have just tried it for this guy, got a number of hits, which I will follow up later, if successful I will comment on my findings in this topic. Interestingly, on your mention of the Falklands War and civilian medals, bigjarofwasps has just posted a query about Falkland Islanders (civilians) and if any were issued with the South Atlantic medal

Best regards

Geoff.

[leigh kitchen]

Could be a regimental tailor?

How are medals to Bandmasters named, are they to "Mr"?

[Hugh]

Just to add to the comment, I remember a listing of a South Atlantic medal to a BAE technician in a Liverpool Medals catalogue.

[Ulsterman]

Reporters also rated a South Atlantic medal. Max Hastings got one-he mentions it's his only gong out of 20 wars or so.