Another ebay treasure..... a pre-Kaisereich PlM?

[Les]

The WWI era ones are pretty easy to sort into the period made pieces, and the fakes. For those of you who want to venture into the really deep end of the shark pond with few life-guards on duty, check this one out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Prussian-Pour-le-Merit...VQQcmdZViewItem

Item number: 190112910783

Sorry for not down-loading and posting the photo here, but if someone else wants to do the honors, feel free to do so.

Les

Edited July 5, 2007 by Les

[Kev in Deva]

The link goes nowhere maybe the item has been removed from ebay??

Kevin in Deva.

[dante]

The link goes nowhere maybe the item has been removed from ebay??

Kevin in Deva.

Its gone?

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Les:

Was this the "Russian-made" piece with crowned woodpeckers between the arms in gold offered for ONLY $5,000 (buy-it now) by a fellow in Dallas?

When these first came out (many years ago!) I think they fooled a few folks. Now, not a chance, as those who are smart enough to properly research what they collect have many sources of good information available (this site, other web pages, books, etc.).

I hope that some poor fellow didn't buy it! It might be worth about $100 or so for the scrap value, but not a lot more.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[dond]

It is still there. Buy it now for $5000. Here are the pics for posterity.

[dond]

another.

[dond]

Gotta be real, see the reference material he provides.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

The piece in post #5 looks like one of the ?Hamburg? copies which were made from a genuine piece of the early 1800?s, crowned eagles and all.

Dond - Am I to understand that post #6 is the reverse of #5?

One of these, properly identified as a copy, was offered in the Andreas Thies auction in April of 2006 (lot #215). In my opinion, this is not the same one. At the same time, somewhere I have a picture of ?the original from which the Hamburg copies were made?. Hopefully I will be able to find and post it.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited July 7, 2007 by Wild Card

[dond]

Front and back of the same.

[Biro]

....The piece in post #5 looks like one of the ?Hamburg? copies which were made from a genuine piece of the early 1800?s, crowned eagles and all. One of these, properly identified as a copy, was offered in the Andreas Thies auction in April of 2006 (lot #215). In my opinion, this is not the same one.

Wild Card

Very good eye.... and memory!

Here's the ebay piece against the one Thies offered (as a copy). It's not the exact same piece he offered - at least I don't think it is - but undeniably it's the same type as you point out.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Biro

[Biro]

I would be fascinated to see a picture of the original to see just how good the so called 'Hamburg copies' are against the real deal.

regards

Marshall

[Stogieman]

Hey Marshall! Where have you been hiding?? Hope you are well!!

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

As promised. Apologies for he delay, it wasn?t where I thought it was and it?s been a long weekend. Personally, I see two differences. Any comments?

Regards,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Apologies again, the picture did not stick - let's try...

[Wild Card]

The photo in post #14 unfortunately is not large enough to show some critical details clearly; but is about the largest size that I can post. So, I am going to do some PhotoShop work which hopefully be more useful.

[Biro]

Thanks Wildcard.

It appears that the arms of the PLM you term the 'Hamburg copy' (on the right) are wider where they meet at the centre junction than the arms of the PLM you've posted as an original (on the left).

Can you confirm this?

There are other details (such as the distance between eagles heads and wings) that could probably be attributed to hand finishing but apart from that, at first glance, it is a DISTURBINGLY good match.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Biro

[Wild Card]

Well done Biro. Yes, the intersection of the cross arms on the copies certainly does appear to be considerably wider. The second difference, at least to me is the leading edge of the eagle?s wings.

Below (I hope) is a magnification of this area on the original. It seems that on the original, the edge is a smooth, rounded curve; while on the copies, it has a rather sharp angle. Do you see it this way?

Yes, as you put it, ?it is a DISTURBINGLY good match?; but don?t forget, these guys are good.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Les]

Well done Biro. Yes, the intersection of the cross arms on the copies certainly does appear to be considerably wider. The second difference, at least to me is the leading edge of the eagle?s wings....................... but don?t forget, these guys are good.

The early pieces had lettering that was applied and/or painted on by hand. The lettering was not formed at the same time the cross itself was. The hand work of each and every jeweler (or shop worker) applying the lettering ought to show differences and they should not be identical.

I haven't examine one of the "Hamburg copies" "in hand" so I can't say much about how these specific copies were made. It's possible that these were cast, not struck or die-rolled. Depending on the specific molding methods used, there are ways to make relatively easily modified molds/masters which can be modified and used for electro-forming (as opposed to older molding methods) of gold objects, etc. The modern electroforming process can be down-right dangerous unless you know specifically what to look for as tell-tale signs. A clever forger can remove or modifiy some of those signs.

The guys making the repros/fakes are good, but sometimes they are "too good" and what gives them away is when "twins" start turning up. The "economics" of passing off fakes usually means batch production of more than a "few." When a relatively scarce item shows up, caution is always advisable. When more than one or two of the same scarce item start turning up....it's time to take a very hard look at that "rare" item.

Les

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Les:

I could not have said it better myself!

Your words: "When a relatively scarce item shows up, caution is always advisable. When more than one or two of the same scarce item start turning up....it's time to take a very hard look at that "rare" item." are pearls of wisdom.

Thanks Les for the great advice.

"SPM"