Belgium Leopold II order monogram

[Roeland]

I have a question regarding the order of Leopold II.

On a dealer site I saw one with a blue shield on the core on the front side with Travail et progress on it instead of what I usually see, a lion and Fait de la force/eendracht maakt macht.

The medal dealer said that this monogram means it is the 1st model of the medal,

I've seen them before and I always thought it was a Congo/colonial/oversea type, and one can see at the monogram on the back which period it is, like the monogram of King Albert I for his regime period etc.

could anyone tell me what period it is or perhaps if it is colonial/overseas etc.

any info welcome, thank you

kind regards,

Roeland

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Roeland

the followiing website might help

http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/

go to Chivalry Orders,

then click on:

The Order of Leopold II.

there is also a link on the same page to:

The Belgium Army Museum at:

http://www.klm-mra.be/engels/collecties/OMD-ENG/index.html

GRAND CROSS SASH AND BADGE ORDER OF LEOPOLD II

(INDEPENDANT CONGO STATE TYPE).

Picture courtesy of the above site.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited July 12, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Vatjan]

...

The medal dealer said that this monogram means it is the 1st model of the medal,

I've seen them before and I always thought it was a Congo/colonial/oversea type, and one can see at the monogram on the back which period it is, like the monogram of King Albert I for his regime period etc.

...

It is indeed a first type, which are fairly rare and usually very expensive.

But you have to be careful because these have been copied.

Jan

[Roeland]

thank you for the information, so if I'm correct it is this:

in 1900 it was created with this monogram as an award in Congo, in 1908 it was also adapted in the belgian order system and the monogram became a lion instead of a shield?

[Vatjan]

thank you for the information, so if I'm correct it is this:

in 1900 it was created with this monogram as an award in Congo, in 1908 it was also adapted in the belgian order system and the monogram became a lion instead of a shield?

Correct indeed

[Roeland]

thank you for everything

[oli4vercammen]

indeed be carefull, becouse they have been copied.

[Tim Tezer]

I have not only been careful about the copies, I have been so careful that I have never ventured to actually purchase a type 1. I would assume that fakers would change the obverse center medallion on a much more common type 2, but other than detecting that this change has been made, is there any other way to identify a fake?

Tim

[Hendrik]

Hello Tim,

The shape of the crown (in the suspension) usually gives a very good first indication that something is afoot ...

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Tim Tezer]

An excellent point!

[g_deploige]

Hello

Her you can see some copys of this medal and a good one

COPY

1)

2)

And here an ORIGINAL

look at the centers

Guy

Edited May 16, 2008 by g_deploige

[Gldank]

Nice! I would even take a "copy" for my collection. Indeed rare!

[farmer]

Gents,

This is indeed a known problem since vast majority of recently sold items are copies or even downright forgeries. Easily obtained silver/gilt crosses and medals are fitted with copied center disks. I have seen pretty much every class done that way and sold on the net or at shows. In my years of observation, original Gold/Silver crosses had the older (Wolfer's pre 'classic' type) crown.

Medals of Merit - I own 5 (3 gold class and 2 silver class) and Guy's original medal shown above is exactly the same as all mine.

To sum it up:

5 of mine, at least one belonging to Guy, 11 others from collectors I know - all of identical details.

This brings me to a notion that there was perhaps only one maker for those early merit medals.

Suspensions are all the same - see image below.

[farmer]

Next image,

Note how detailed pebbles are, also the branch at the bottom. Star in the corner sort of fills the space between inner and outer shield outlines. Disks on all of mine are exactly 13mm in diameter - I suspect Guy's is the same.

[farmer]

On the last note,

All crosses I've examined have another thing in common. On the top arms there are 6 1/2 ridges showing between wreath tips and outer edge. That is 6 fully visible ridges and 1 half visible ridge. See image below.

Hope this helps.

[Gldank]

Thank you farmer for your post. Very interesting. :cheers:

[g_deploige]

dear farmer

see here the mesures of my medal

Ø medal 38,34 mm

hight from ball at top 46,23 mm

Ø center front 13,17 mm

Ø center back 13,28 mm

middel size 7,18 mm

large ribbon 37,38 mm

large black stripe in ribon 6,18 mm

Guy

Edited January 2, 2011 by g_deploige

[g_deploige]

Model EIC and Belgian model

Front

Back side

same carecteristics at the suspention

[g_deploige]

side view EIC

side view belgian model

[oli4vercammen]

the first model has a smaler black stripe on the ribon also

[farmer]

dear farmer

see here the mesures of my medal

Ø medal 38,34 mm

hight from ball at top 46,23 mm

Ø center front 13,17 mm

Ø center back 13,28 mm

middel size 7,18 mm

large ribbon 37,38 mm

large black stripe in ribon 6,18 mm

Guy

Guy,

Thanks for the images and measurements.

Obviously you have a digital caliper. There are some interesting points apparent here. Your suspension part on the EIC (for those who are not familiar with this terminology - Independent State of Congo) type is not as finely detailed as mine, yet dimensions are very close to all of my examples. Also, all of mine lack this round spot (featured in the center of suspension) as shown in your images. Center disk appears nearly identical to yours, so do the other features except suspension details.

My manual caliper shows (note that I am estimating decimals here):

Measurements of 5 individual crosses (unless specified below).

- overall height (bottom of cross to top of suspension ball) - 44.2 - 45.8

- width at widest spread of the arms of the cross - 35.3 - 35.5

- diameter (measured at furthest distance of 'bulge' between arms: 38.3- 38.9 (this is one troublesome masurement since 'bulges' are not symmetrical)

- Suspension ring diameter: 14.2mm - 14.8mm (2 of mine are quite deformed so this measurement is of 3 medals)

- wire thickness of rings - about 1.5 mm this makes it roughly 14 gauge (in North America)

- center disk diameter; obverse - 13mm - 13.1mm; reverse: 12.9-13.2mm.

- ribbon width of 4 - (4 are presumed original - 1 replacement with later ribbon): 37-37.2mm (I think it would be safe to state those were to be 37mm intended width)

- black stripe width - 6mm (again, I think that would be the safe guess as to intended size)

One other thing I have noticed, 2 of my 'gold' crosses appear to be made of silver gilt and have a strange punch mark on the ribbon eye - unknown to me but it is very partial hence hard to decipher.

All of my medals show fine machining in the center part - rings are visible in the image of a gold and silver class medals.

[farmer]

Image of the unknown ring mark - unfortunately detail is faint. It looks like couple of lines but both of my 'gold' class medals have nearly identical mark so I do not think this is a coincidence.

Looking forward to more images from members.

[g_deploige]

see here an early commander cross after the order became belgian after December 1908

Guy

[Gldank]

I like the Congo Leo II very much. I purchased one from a forum member last year.

[g_deploige]

I like the Congo Leo II very much. I purchased one from a forum member last year.

Dear James,

I have to mention you that your model of the Order of Leopold II of the Congo Freestate is a copy.

I hope you didn't payed for it the price of a good one

Sorry

Guy