EK 1939 Godet Knights Cross Opinions

[philsidey]

Can anyone confirm that Godet only ever marked the loop of their knights crosses and not the cross itself. I have seen one marked 800 and number 21 on the top of the cross and wondered about it's authenticity.

[ekhunter]

I would avoid one marked 800 and 21.

[PKeating]

If the cross is not identical to the Zimmermann displayed here then forget about it. Godet and Zimmermann had a reciprocal agreement for Iron Cross manufacture and it is fairly safe to assume that Zimmermann produced the RK and EK1 supplied by Godet to the PKA. Had Godet produced these crosses, they would be very common today because of the reuse of Godet tooling and dies in the 1960s and 1970s.

PK

[ekhunter]

If the cross is not identical to the Zimmermann displayed here then forget about it. Godet and Zimmermann had a reciprocal agreement for Iron Cross manufacture and it is fairly safe to assume that Zimmermann produced the RK and EK1 supplied by Godet to the PKA. Had Godet produced these crosses, they would be very common today because of the reuse of Godet tooling and dies in the 1960s and 1970s.

PK

Agreed! I don't see how anyone couldn't agree with the above statement. If so, I would love to hear the reasoning.

[Alex K]

To the novices, like me, does that mean that an identifiable Zimmerman or Godet is more likely to be genuine than the S & L, Juncker, etc?? genuine question

Alex

[philsidey]

Thanks to everyone that gave me their opinions, I am of the opinion that the 21 marked on the cross is somewhat suspect and that this piece is to be avoided.

[PKeating]

To the novices, like me, does that mean that an identifiable Zimmerman or Godet is more likely to be genuine than the S & L, Juncker, etc?? genuine question

Alex

Yes, indeed it is, Alex. However, you're fairly safe with Juncker crosses too because the factory was bombed to smithereens in December 1944 and there is nothing to suggest that the dies survived to be put to use after the war. Nothing wrong with being a novice or with asking valid questions like this! We were all novices once...

PK

[Hairoil]

Although of identical components, it would appear the finishing of the Godet supplied crosses are of a higher standard than that of Zimmermann examples, with differences in the core paint characteristics. It is more likely that Godet at least assembled thier own RKs, albeit with parts supplied by Zimmermann.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Hairoil

[PKeating]

More than likely... The crosses in the special multiple sets given out after the campaigns of 1939 and 1940 were Godets. They also used the Imperial-style ovaloid ribbon loop.

PK

[Biro]

Although of identical components, it would appear the finishing of the Godet supplied crosses are of a higher standard than that of Zimmermann examples....

Hello Hairoil

Can you post a few pictures of the Godet crosses you are basing your conclusions on?

It would be great for us to see close-ups of these Godets to see the finishing quality!

Thanks

Marshall

[PKeating]

The standard of finish of the Zimmermann crosses was quite high.

PK

[Richard Gordon]

They also used the Imperial-style ovaloid ribbon loop.

Zimmermann's can also be found with this style of loop making it slighly confusing. Would that not suggest that Godet was supplying the parts?

While it's clear the two used the same parts, has it been documented anywhere who was the supplier? I go with Zimmerman but am interested to know if it has been fully proven.

I often wonder why so few Zimmermann/Godet RK exist.

[PKeating]

Zimmermann's can also be found with this style of loop making it slighly confusing. Would that not suggest that Godet was supplying the parts?

As far as I concerned, Zimmermann supplied the components and that probably included the riband loop. The Zimmermann RK I had - which now lives with Pieter Verbruggen - had the ovaloid loop with L/52 and 900 marks. The cross was unmarked.

While it's clear the two used the same parts, has it been documented anywhere who was the supplier? I go with Zimmerman but am interested to know if it has been fully proven.

It's impossible to prove fully but I think the fact that the high end fake Ritterkreuze supplied by the Godet firm to various high end dealers in the 1960s and 1970s look nothing like known original Zimmermann/Godet crosses suggests that Zimmermann held the dies and tooling.

I often wonder why so few Zimmermann/Godet RK exist.

If Godet had been the maker from 1939 to 1945, there would be as many Zimmermann/Godet RK out there as Steinhauer & L?ck RK. Had the tooling suvived the war, like the S&L and Klein & Quenzer tooling, Frau Klietmann would used it as she used Godet's other tooling.

This is why I am convinced that the crosses were made by Zimmermann. It could be that Godet bought in the components and assembled them but I would want to see a known Godet cross up close before accepting this as probable rather than possible.

The Zimmermann RK I have owned or examined were all of a high standard in terms in manufacturing and finish quality, with the exception of the several examples that came to light a while ago, all of which were fire-damaged and a couple of which were "restored".

In more than thirty years, nobody has ever been able to show me an RK identifiable as a Godet cross...as opposed to a Zimmermann cross. Old photographs from Dr Klietmann's archives of the cased sets presented by Hitler to various high-ranking officers after the 1940 campaigns show RK that are obviously of the Zimmermann/Godet type, complete with the characteristic ovaloid riband loops.

It is reasonable to presume that these sets were supplied to the PKA by Godet, given the appearance of the cases. However, I have never examined a known, original cased set of this nature personally, so I do not know if the cases or the lower grade awards bore any Godet trademarks.

PK

[Richard Gordon]

It is reasonable to presume that these sets were supplied to the PKA by Godet, given the appearance of the cases. However, I have never examined a known, original cased set of this nature personally, so I do not know if the cases or the lower grade awards bore any Godet trademarks.

I think it would be reasonable to assume that in these sets the RK is unmarked given the early date as I would assume that period preceeded the creation of LDO and PKA numbering.

I think I read somewhere (but unconfirmed) that Pieter Verbruggen owns one of these sets?

[PKeating]

Indeed. PKA numbering appears to have been adopted in 1944 although it could have been a bit earlier. LDO numbering came in in 1941. I think Pieter does have one of these sets but I don't know whether it's the set with the RK and two 1939 Bars or one of the others. Never asked him.

PK