British/Canadian WWI Hate Belt

[buellmeister]

Gents,

Just returned from the Lowell Militaria collector's show today with this little piece of History. It is what I believe a Canadian or British Mills belt with an Imperial German Buckle and various German buttons and a lone French Button affixed to it. An interesting find that I'm quite please with. There appears to have been many more buttons that adorned this belt however, those that remain tell the story completely. Enjoy!

Regards,

Joel

Edited August 5, 2007 by buellmeister

[buellmeister]

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[buellmeister]

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[Guest Rick Research]

These don't show up much any more!

See? Your luck changes when I don't go!

[buellmeister]

Rick,

Thank you my friend! Sorry I missed Jeff and yourself today. It was a busy day with a long line out the door. None the less as you fought through the pickers there were a few goodies to be had.

The belt and buckle was all bundled up with a rubber band at at first glance I was thinking it may have been a German Colonial belt till I noticed the other end of the belt and all of the other buttons fastened to it. I'm psyched to own a true piece of history that truly has the "been there" look.

Edited August 5, 2007 by buellmeister

[Graham Stewart]

Could someone please explain to me why they are termed "Hate Belts"?? The reason I ask is because the practice of displaying badges, buttons and titles on service belts had gone on in the British Army long beofre the outbreak of WWI and was certainly continued up to WWII.

Graham.

[Tiger-pie]

Could someone please explain to me why they are termed "Hate Belts"?? The reason I ask is because the practice of displaying badges, buttons and titles on service belts had gone on in the British Army long beofre the outbreak of WWI and was certainly continued up to WWII.

Graham.

Each of those buttons were probably taken as a trophy from each enemy soldier the owner killed, soldiers would attach the buttons and insignia from killed and captured enemy soldiers to a belt as a souvenir hence the name "Hate Belt". It wasn't unusual to see other allied badges and buttons on these belts, usually traded for.

Regards;

Johnsy

[Chris Boonzaier]

I imagine once the soldier got home each of the buttons would have been for "huns I got with the bayonet" or "got all of these at 3000 meters with my trench knife"...

I would imagine in reality that the guys took buttons from POWs, dicarded jackets, Corpses, Wounded and sewing kits. Anythng to make a nice decoration for the belt.

The stories behind it were probably polished up on the way home to make it more interesting.

[buellmeister]

Chris,

One would hope so..... Or at least in this case...

Regards,

Joel

[Tony]

The belt isn't wide enough for British webbing (3" width), did Canadians have narrower web belts? What was US webbing like?

Great piece anyway.

Tony

[Tiger-pie]

I imagine once the soldier got home each of the buttons would have been for "huns I got with the bayonet" or "got all of these at 3000 meters with my trench knife"...

I would imagine in reality that the guys took buttons from POWs, dicarded jackets, Corpses, Wounded and sewing kits. Anythng to make a nice decoration for the belt.

The stories behind it were probably polished up on the way home to make it more interesting.

Given the clubs, knunkle-dusters and trench knives they used in close quarter combat, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were "kills".

A notable example would be Albert Jacka who killed about 12 men in one day at close quarters, that not counting those he killed from a distance, and previously he had killed 7 Turks in one action, two with the bayonet. If that level of killing was typical, then that would give plenty of oppurtunity for collecting a "scalp" or two.

Regards;

Johnsy

[buellmeister]

What gets me is how barbaric things must have gotten in those close quartered Trenches!

Joel

[tynesideirish]

I don't think most people can imagine what it was like. The photo's are horrific but it pails into insignificance with what really happened when they burst into the other sides trench with bomb, bayonet, spades and knives.

I think if they were just POW finds there would be nicer trinkets on view. 1 kill , 1 button. That Frenchman must have p*ssed him off.

[Ulsterman]

I just saw this thread. I remember this belt and am 99% certain that it originally had additional buttons and cap badges, mostly British/Canadian and US DIs on it- as well as an EK1 and a wound badge or two. A GREAT piece of history.

There has also been a Bread bag floating around that is slowly losing its bits and pieces that were originally on it. The guy who brought it in originally offered it at $400. It's notable because it has a HJ armband sewn onto it.

[leigh kitchen]

A strap rather than a belt, by the width of it. It's always a pity when you find these belts with insignia removed, but sometimes the parts are more valuable than the whole for a dealer - I bought a MMG cap badge a while ago & found that the slider had been bent double & then straightened out again - turned out the dealer had removed it from a souvenir belt, worth more to him broken up than whole.

I've a few incomplete souvenir belts - a cWWI black stable belt with Tank Corps titles, a couple of snake clasp schoolboy type stable belts (one red & blue owned by a pre WWI Royal Marine, one green & buff WWI Northants Regt) & a brown leather Luftwaffe belt.

Steptoe & Son - 'Arold wears a leather belt studded with British army cap badges, the character served in Malaya so not much scope for enemy insignia I suppose.

And if I killed some bloke I'd have it away with more than his buttons.........

[Brian Wolfe]

The First World War was truly brutal, as is any war. I have read that soldiers in the trenches would use human leg bones, stuck in the sides of the trench, as a coat hook. It would seem that many people become somewhat desensitised to the horrors that surrounded them. I've seen several of these so called hate belts over the years and I was always of the impression that they represented souvenir hunting as opposed to a kill tally. Certainly these "captured insignia" would not have been worn on an official belt that would ever be worn with a uniform. Without giving away personal details, I can recall an RSM offering to wear a portion of my lower anatomy on his key chain due to one undone button. So I could imagine what would happen if one was to show up with this hate belt on parade. One that was offered by a dealer at a show I attended a while back had several hat badges and buttons affixed to it. These consisted of German as well as Canadian and British insignia.

So I guess this is not a statement as much as a question. Were these items, for the most part, the product of souvenir hunting rather than actual kill counting and then were given a name (Hate Belt) that didn't really accurately describe what they were. I'm thinking along the lines of the "Memorial Plaque/Death Penny".

Cheers

Brian

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

The one pictured above looks to be made out of a British / Commonwealth Rifle Sling!!!!

With regard "Hate Belts" I cant imagine them being worn in the Trenches as I can well imagine the reaction from the enemy if captured wearing one.

It is very possible these objects fall into the same catagory as "Trench Art" 85% + being fabricated miles to the rear away from the Trenches and even immediate Post War.

My tuppence worth

Kevin in Deva.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Graham Stewart]

I'm with the souvenir hunters on this one, as it's highly unlikely that when you've topped someone, you're going to hang around and have a rummage. Can imagine it after an action, but not during. There is I believe a well known photo of an Australian souvenir hunter shortly after their arrival in France who is well and truelly weighted down with loot, but all taken from German dugouts not from 'kills'. I'll post a photo later on today of the Northumberland's after a battle and a number of them have German items taken from dugouts.

As I said in early in the post the British had been doing for years with their own insignia, so they can't in any way be described as 'hate belts'.

Graham

[buellmeister]

Gents,

Thank you for your additional comments.. When combing the tables it definately was a must have for me. At first glance I thought it may have been an Imperial German Colonial Belt, when I unfurled it I had notice the affixed insignia and was just as excited. The things you find I say.

Regards,

Joel

Edited October 9, 2007 by buellmeister

[Graham Stewart]

Further to my last post and I mentioned an Australian souvenir hunter - well here he is and also a run down on the man himself, thanks to my colleagues in the Great War Forum. John 'Barney' Hines, 45th Bn, Australian Imperial Forces.

Graham

John "Barney" Hines was a real thorn in the side of the German army during World War I, so much so that the Kaiser put a price on his head "dead or alive".

Hines had the happy knack of being able to wreck German pill boxes which threatened Australian troops using his favourite Mills bombs (grenades).

On top of that, he became a master at souveniring, looting all sorts of items from dead and captured Germans and returning triumphant to the Australian lines. So good was he that he became known as the "Souvenir King".

It was a photograph showing Barney Hines squatting among a pile of souvenirs after the Battle of Polygon Wood in France in 1917 that originally infuriated the Kaiser and brought about his demand to capture the "Australian Barbarian" dead or alive. The photograph was passed among Australians and eventually a copy fell into the hands of the Germans.

Barney was not at all fazed by his notoriety and continued to collect great supplies of badges, helmets, guns, watches and other jewellery while maintaining his amazing attacks on German troops. He was reputed to have killed more Germans than any other soldier in the AIF.

On one occasion he reached a German pill box and danced on the roof taunting the occupants to come out. When nothing happened he lobbed a couple of Mills bombs through the gun openings, killing some and forcing the rest, about 63 of them, to come out with raised arms. He duly collected his souvenirs from them and herded them back to the Australian lines.

Among his more unusual souvenirs were a grand piano, which he managed to keep for several days, a grand father clock which was eventually blown up by his own men because it attracted shell fire from the German lines whenever it chimed, a barrel of Bass ale, which he shared with his comrades, and several suitcases full of banknotes from the bank at Amiens. He was arrested by British military police but caused so much bother he was returned to his unit.

Hines was born in Liverpool, England, and tried to join the British Army when he was 14. His mother intervened and he was returned to her care. Two years later he joined the navy but lasted a year till he was discharged after a bad bout of malaria.

He headed for the Klondike gold rush and got caught up in the Boer War where he worked as a guide for British troops, before trying his luck in New Zealand and eventually reaching Australian shores.

When World War I broke out he tried to enlist in the AIF when already in his 40s. He was rejected on medical grounds. But he persisted and was finally accepted, sent to France as a reinforcement for the 45th Battalion.

And then began his amazing sequence of daring attacks and enthusiastic souveniring.

His luck had to run out eventually and he was wounded when at Passchendaele every man in his Lewis gun crew was killed by an exploding shell. Hines was flung 20 yards through the air, had the soles ripped from his boots but still managed to crawl back and keep firing until he fainted from his wounds.

He was soon back in action but not long afterwards was hit above the eye by a bullet and was hit by a gas attack. He was eventually repatriated to Australia and recovered sufficiently to take up droving, prospecting and timber cutting. When World War II broke out he again tried to enlist in his 60s but for some reason was rejected.

Hines died in 1958

Edited October 12, 2007 by Graham Stewart

[leigh kitchen]

I'm with the souvenir hunters on this one, as it's highly unlikely that when you've topped someone, you're going to hang around and have a rummage. Can imagine it after an action, but not during. There is I believe a well known photo of an Australian souvenir hunter shortly after their arrival in France who is well and truelly weighted down with loot, but all taken from German dugouts not from 'kills'. I'll post a photo later on today of the Northumberland's after a battle and a number of them have German items taken from dugouts.

As I said in early in the post the British had been doing for years with their own insignia, so they can't in any way be described as 'hate belts'.

Graham

The Aussie, can't remember his name, something like "One Eye" or similar? There's a well known pic of him wearing a pikelhaube & sitting on a pile of souvenirs, clutching more loot.

The Northumberlands - would that be one the photos taken after St Eloi? They're not just carrying souvenirs in those photos but wearing nice clean trousers with their muddy tunics & equipment - presumably German trousers?

[Graham Stewart]

Yes - obviously staged for the camera and the folks back home, although on closer inspection they don't look that clean and the Lewis Gunner has removed his puttees. Still the point is enemy equipment was readily available for picking up and so these belts really shouldn't be classed as "hate-belts" with gory tales of daring-do, as the stuff was there to take and put on belts in the first place.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Same battle closer shot of the lads and their newly aquired "gizzits".

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Same battle again and the gentlemen who kindly supplied the "gizzits".

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

In response to your comment on the clean trousers - an NF always likes to look his best after a good punch up with Jerry. Clean underwear would be optional of course.

Graham.