Soviet M1943 NKVD-NKGB Lieutenant uniform, "bottle boards"

[Ed_Haynes]

The uniform with cap.

[Ed_Haynes]

Uniform.

[Ed_Haynes]

Single left-chest screwback decoration. What??

[Ed_Haynes]

And . . . oh . . . yes . . . the shoulder boards.

[Riley1965]

WOW Ed!!! GREAT looking uniform and your other uniform!!! Have you started another addiction?

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, that's exactly FOUR sets of those boards I've ever seen.

Note even though the gimnastyorka's unpiped, it has chest pocket pleats, which normally indicates SS-issue. Military officers ones are just the flaps. Sometimes you see military-made ones worn by SS officers, but I've never seen the other way around.

If you don't have any trace of the points for whatever the screwback was, try flattening it so it's unwrinkled (put cardboard inside and press down on that) and try a plain old fashioned xerox. Sometimes the black and white contrast will bring out the ghost of fading difference in the cloth that was covered by Whatever It Was.

This, of course, will make for VERY interesting conversation with whoever catches you at the copier, but I have always found that we history types can get away with ALMOST as much Personal Eccentricity as 19th century English poetry specialists.

Don't untie the boards, but if you wiggle around at the undersides, is there any form of manufacturer's stamp on them? I've never been able to handle any "live."

[RichieC]

Field type "bottle" boards... For me, such a thing is quite a curiosity, to say the least. Personally, I have never seen a period image with them shown. Of course that does not mean that they never existed.

Many things that the "professors" state never existed have been proven otherwise, with the admission of period photos as evidence in the debate.

Does anybody here in the Gentleman's Club have access to an image(s) that pertains to this subject?

Ed, I publicly request your permission to present your photos to the Russian author; Valantin Voronov, for his opinion. For all who may not know, Voronov is an NKVD-"phile", and is quite knowledgeable with the subject; especially concerning shoulder-boards & their attributes, and insignia in general.

[RichieC]

Ed, one additional question concering the gymnasterka. The buttons seem to be the 18MM type, which does not present any type of question as they were used in great numbers along with many other types and combinations of. Perhaps it is my bad eyesight, or my monitor is distorting colors; Are they painted green or feldgrau?

[Ed_Haynes]

Please direct him to this forum rather than "lift" the photos. I am not interested in adding obscuring watermarks.

I am fully aware that by showing this uniform (and the others), I am opening myself to involvement in the various games that seem to infest this field. The forum has already "enjoyed" some of this.

[RichieC]

No games intended, least of all from the likes of me. Really...

Mr. Vorovov does not read or write in English, so I assumed that I would simply show the images and translated text to him. They would not be posted publicly, so a watermark would not be necessary in any case.

Nevermind Ed...

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed, one additional question concering the gymnasterka. The buttons seem to be the 18MM type, which does not present any type of question as they were used in great numbers along with many other types and combinations of. Perhaps it is my bad eyesight, or my monitor is distorting colors; Are they painted green or feldgrau?

Thanks for the help here, by the way, Richie; I seek to learn.

The buttons are (all) 18 mm, olive green in color. (The grey seems to be a photography/lighting artifact.)

I can find no maker's mark on the reverse of the boards, but I am not 100% sure I know where to look (and want to do nothing that disturbs them).

There is a stamp inside the gymnasterka, which I shall attempt to scan and enhance.

[Ed_Haynes]

No games intended, least of all from the likes of me. Really...

Mr. Vorovov does not read or write in English, so I assumed that I would simply show the images and translated text to him. They would not be posted publicly, so a watermark would not be necessary in any case.

Nevermind Ed...

Richie,

PM sent. It is just that I have seen some very nasty, snarly, ungentlemanly games played over such issues, and on THIS very forum.

Ed

[Ed_Haynes]

With some more effort, I might be able to do better, but there isn't much to work with here.

[Guest Rick Research]

That's probably all you'll get, since the rump of the skirt got a lot of wear. Top line would be the factory, second line the city, the big "4" on lower right is ? size, and just to its left, not quite visible, is the "## g." year date.

When there are any marks at all on boards of this age (may only have started after the war) usually there is ONE of a pair marked on the underside of the top of one in the pair, paint stencil sort of sloppily applied thing with length and quality and (if lucky) a year, The earliest one I've got MIGFHT say "49 g" so maybe that system came in after the war.

Usually 1-2-3 is a quality marking (you may find that inside the hat, next to Cyrillic "COPT" for "QUALITY") 1 being top, 2 good enough for officers, 3 being very definitely for the drafted Comrades. But on straps the same numbering seems to indicate three ready-made LENGTHS.

[RichieC]

When there are any marks at all on boards of this age (may only have started after the war) usually there is ONE of a pair marked on the underside of the top of one in the pair, paint stencil sort of sloppily applied thing with length and quality and (if lucky) a year, The earliest one I've got MIGFHT say "49 g" so maybe that system came in after the war.

Usually 1-2-3 is a quality marking (you may find that inside the hat, next to Cyrillic "COPT" for "QUALITY") 1 being top, 2 good enough for officers, 3 being very definitely for the drafted Comrades. But on straps the same numbering seems to indicate three ready-made LENGTHS.

Order № 415 от 15.09.1957.

[Sergey]

And . . . oh . . . yes . . . the shoulder boards.

I apologize but I think -

strange configuration the shoulder boards. A strange place of fastening of a button

[Daredevil]

the bottle boards a very nice example; the field green ones are even rarer than the gold ones (super rare in themselves).

the story on 'bottle boards' according to some of the experts (including S. Caza whom I trust quite a bit for NKVD EM and Officer items), is that the bottle boards were to be for all NKVD units, but production and supply problems caused a lack of boards to be made. those that were made, were issued to NKGB units for a bit in late 1943 and 1944, until all NKVD units went over to the traditional boards.

I have also been told that they used blue engineering boards at times when NKVD boards were not available, but I take that with a grain of salt.

dd

[Daredevil]

there are some out there who claim that these boards can't be real because they have not been seen in original photos. Thats fine if that is what they need for proof (to each his own). However, if they are going to claim they are repro, they need to be able to explain why.

Here is a set that I claim are repro; the material is modern, the stamp it far too clear and the backing of the boards themselves is not of the correct material. the actual construction of the boards is not correct as well.

if the 'bottle boards' are not correct they should have some signs of being repro, that can be explained and pointed out.

[Guest Rick Research]

By pure coincidence, something that came up in another thread got me ruminating on marked boards, so I went hunting through my uniforms and I haven't been able to find one that I can tell more than which side is up, they are so sloppily stencilled and rubbed. The little underside fastening loop for the tongue invariably being placed right smack over the mark never helps either.

There are many things which can only be determined in hand, and not by scans. We're on the same page about materials. New cloth just doesn't look or more importantly literally FEEL right.

In Soviet as in every other collecting field, one thing that is always a GOOD sign to me is the SCARCITY and or uniqueness of Things Wierd. Fakes are mass produced for easy money, not hand-crafted as one-offs.

[Daredevil]

"In Soviet as in every other collecting field, one thing that is always a GOOD sign to me is the SCARCITY and or uniqueness of Things Wierd. Fakes are mass produced for easy money, not hand-crafted as one-offs."

I agree; while one-offs might be modified or altered items to make more money, outright fakes are made in at least somewhat good numbers. If i see a large number ( or even a few!) NKGB field boards showing up on E, or at ismailova, or anyplace else, I would be nervous, but like your BG boards, these are the only ones I have seen.