pictures of two generals

[Komtur]

Not spectecular, but may be of interest for anyone here: two new arrived pics of imperial Generals.

1. Generalleutnant Feldmann (?) (as I read the signiture)

On the back dated by postal stamp 11.10.1933. I only found one fitting in the Ehrenrangliste 1914.

[Komtur]

2. unknown Generalmajor with Red Eagle Order 2nd class with X and oak leaves, may be identifiable by his order bar?

[Glenn J]

Hi Komtur,

char. Generalleutnant Hans v. Feldmann, born 7 November 1868 in Berlin, died 10 July 1940 in Hannover. He retired as the State Secretary in the War Ministry on 7 April 1922 with the Charakter of Generalleutnant. Strangely, he appears to wear the rank of a General der Infanterie.

Regards

Glenn

[Komtur]

Hi Komtur,

char. Generalleutnant Hans v. Feldmann, born 7 November 1868 in Berlin, died 10 July 1940 in Hannover. He retired as the State Secretary in the War Ministry on 7 April 1922 with the Charakter of Generalleutnant. Strangely, he appears to wear the rank of a General der Infanterie.

Regards

Glenn

Hm, shame on me , I was wrong with the rank insignia, then the second general must be a Generalleutnant. May be I was wrong with the signature too??? Does it really mean "Feldmann". Any other idea for interpretation of this S?tterlin writing?

Thanks and regards, Komtur.

[Glenn J]

Komtur,

the same photograph is used in the Biblio Generals' series so I assume it is v. Feldmann.

Regards

Glenn

Edited September 14, 2007 by Glenn J

[bob lembke]

Komtur,

the same photograph is used in the Biblio Generals' series so I assume it is v. Feldmann.

Regards

Glenn

Might it be possible that General von Feldmann was Jewish? I hope it is not a non-PC question. I think I know of another Imperial general that supposedly was Jewish. Certainly some Jewish families assimilated very deeply, converted to Christianity, etc.

Bob Lembke

[Glenn J]

Hi Bob,

Might it be possible that General von Feldmann was Jewish? I hope it is not a non-PC question.

Not according to the Offizier-Stammliste of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 74 in which he was first commissioned. He and his brothers Max and Otto are described as evangelisch. They were the sons of Prussian char. Generalmajor Philipp Friedrich Theodor Adolph (von) Feldmann who was raised to the nobility on 16 June 1871 for bravery in the field.

Regards

Glenn

[bob lembke]

Hi, Glenn;

Might it be possible that General von Feldmann was Jewish?

I asked the question in part as I have been told (by a book) that the CO of my father's Freikorps, Major von Stephani, was of Jewish origin. He was a Guards officer, and his father was a Prussian general. Post Great War he was an extreme right-wing plotter, was a top leader of the Stahlhelm, and served, I understand, as a very right Reichstag deputy as an Ehrenayran ("Honorary Aryan").

The source of most of the above information is a former Chairman of History at Brandis University, the leading Jewish university in the United States, so the source is presumably one without sinister motivations.

Bob Lembke

[Fifat]

Hans von Feldmann is now described in an article in the German wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Feldmann. The general on the photo is wearing the insignia of a Generalmajor. However, von Feldmanns highest rank during his service was Generalmajor - as the Photo shows. Only at the end of his service he was dismissed with the character of a Generalleutnant. Thereforde, the photo seems to be taken during the time when he was still an active officer.

His religion was evangelisch (protestant). His parents were Generalmajor Adolf von Feldmann (1828-1894), who was ennobled 1871, and Jenny L?hrsen (1841-1917). His wife was the dauguter of Dr. iur Gustav L?hrsen (1805-1868) and Charlotte Jauch (1811-1872). See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauch_(Hamburg)

Edited November 20, 2008 by Fifat

[Guest Rick Research]

"S/l. Patenkinde Onkel Feldmann"... I don't find anybody else possible either...

NO von

NEVER a General der (Etwas)

I am unawre of that government rank allowing "rank" higher than actually held to be worn.

very very strange.

The other Generalleutnant cannot be identified from his awards.

His ribbon bar =

Iron Cross

must be Prussian Crown Order 3

Prussian XXV

1897 Medal

Hamburg Hanseatic Cross

?

?

and it is always possible that he is wearing an OUTDATED ribbon bar and not wearing all of his awards-- just as Generalmajor Siegfried von la Chevallerie, here:

He's STILL wearing an early war ribbon bar with KO3 on it that had been replaced by a KO2X!

[Fifat]

Hans von Feldmanns brother was Otto von Feldmann, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Feldmann. Otto von Feldmanns portrait is shown under

http://mdz1.bib-bvb.de/~rt/index.html, which contains the data of the Reichtagsabgeordneten, to whom Otto von Feldmann later belonged. Unfortunately the data actually can not be accessed. Therefore, we are for the time beeing unable to compare the photgraphs.

The only German generals reported with the name "von Feldmann" are:

FELDMANN, Adolph Philipp Friedrich Theodor von GM1828-1894

FELDMANN, Hans von GL1868-1940

See: http://www.lexikon-deutschegenerale.de/f_pr.html

Therefore, I assume, the general shown on the picture with the signature "Feldmann" is Hans von Feldmann in the rank of a Generalmajor. The photo must have been taken between 1920, when became a Generalmajor, and 1922 when he left service with the character of a Generalleutnant. Born in 1868 he was at this time 52 years old which seems to match the age of the general on the photo.

"s/l Patenkinde" means "To his beloved godchild" ...

may be of interest: Hans von Feldmann himself had two children, Adolf Theodor (1899-1970) and Wilhelma (*1903), the latter godchild of Emperor Wilhelm II.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Fifat

[W McSwiggan]

Confusion R Us!

Glad to see others confused on the old boy's rank!

2 pips = full general last I looked and yet the photo caption shows "GL aD".

Thought I'd lost it there but as long as Rick & Glenn are confused, I at least can take the solace of being in good company (good not implying well behaved...).

[Guest Rick Research]

That's not a caption on the photo-- it's a clip of his entry in the Honor Rank List.

4 "bumps" of 3-cord shoulder boards with 2 rank pips = General der Infanterie/Artillerie/Kavallerie etc NOT Generalmajor.

[Fifat]

"S/l. Patenkinde Onkel Feldmann"... I don't find anybody else possible either...

NO von

NEVER a General der (Etwas)

I am unawre of that government rank allowing "rank" higher than actually held to be worn.

very very strange.

Hans von Feldmann left the army "mit dem Charakter eines Generalleutnants".

That means, see: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charakter, that he left the army with a "Ehrenrang", a military rank which is only a honorary rank. If by whatever reason von Feldmann was reactivated his function would have only been one fitting to a Generalmajor.

[Guest Rick Research]

:rolleyes:

1, 2, 3:

The rank insignia being worn in Onkel Feldmann's photo are for a GENERAL DER Infanterie/Artillerie/Kavallerie/Pioniere (usw usw usw) N-O-T for a Generalmajor.

(After this, I give up.)

[Fifat]

One obvious question remains - I was just looking again at von Feldmanns photo:

Why did he apparently remove his ribbon bar from his tunic - we still can see the holes, where it was fixed? It is not a snapshot but a rather official picture of him, used for postcards, too.

[Fifat]

Next problem:

The insigna of the generals of the Wehrmacht were

see: (link)

Generalfeldmarschall (from 1942) (0) Generalfeldmarschall (until 1942) (1) Generaloberst in the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall (until 1940) (2) Generaloberst (3) General (4) Generalleutnant (5) Generalmajor (6)

... and our von Feldmann has two stars ... making him a "general"? Therefore, I assume, the photo was even earlier, when he still was an Oberst (colonel), which was until 1919/1920. ... but (!!) his collar is the collar of a general and not the one of a colonel. The uniform seems to be quite mysterious.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Fifat

[Komtur]

Nice to see this forgotten thread coming up again

After all I?m sure it is Hans von Feldmann. The question remains, why he is wearing on that photo the insignia of a General der whatever

For your enjoyment (cross gold and W marked, swords silver gilded):

[Fifat]

Next problem :

The order at the collar has the form of the Order of the Crown with Swords of Prussia (until 1918) indeed. But ... it was not worn at the collar. Those classes, where the badge was worn at the collar had at the same time a big star on the left chess ...

The Order of the crown of Prussia (also worn with swords) had six classes:

*Grand Cross - wore the Grand Cross badge on a sash on the right shoulder, plus the star on the left chest;

*1st Class - wore the badge on a sash on the right shoulder, plus the star on the left chest;

*2nd Class - wore the badge on a necklet, plus the star on the left chest;

*3rd Class - wore the badge on a ribbon on the left chest;

*4th Class - wore the badge on a ribbon on the left chest;

*Medal - wore the medal on a ribbon on the left chest.

[Komtur]

The order at the collar has the form of the Order of the Crown with Swords of Prussia (until 1918) indeed. But ... it was not worn at the collar. Those classes, where the badge was worn at the collar had at the same time a big star on the left chess ...

The Order of the crown of Prussia (also worn with swords) had six classes:

*Grand Cross - wore the Grand Cross badge on a sash on the right shoulder, plus the star on the left chest;

*1st Class - wore the badge on a sash on the right shoulder, plus the star on the left chest;

*2nd Class - wore the badge on a necklet, plus the star on the left chest;

*3rd Class - wore the badge on a ribbon on the left chest;

*4th Class - wore the badge on a ribbon on the left chest;

*Medal - wore the medal on a ribbon on the left chest.

In that case you are wrong. The star of all the second classes (or Komtur classes) of German orders where a class of its own, given after the neck cross was awarded as the next higher decoration. Only sometimes they where awarded both together.

There was also never a Grand Cross of the Prussian Crown Order.

Hans von Feldmann got only the neck cross of the 2nd class with swords on 28th Oct. 1916.

Best regards, Komtur.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Komtur

[Daniel Krause]

Dear fifat,

before You see more problems where no problems are...

The Order around Feldmanns neck does not have the forn of a Crown Order, it IS one.

The simple 2nd class was worn around the neck without a star and was awarded usually to full colonels and characterized Major Generals.

The 2nd class "with star" was something different and had a star as the name suggests. It was awarded either the Star to the already awarded 2nd class or the whole set to Major Generals and younger Lt Generals.

In WW1 were awarded with swords:

98 2nd classes with star

26 stars to the already awarded 2nd class

641 simple plain no-star 2nd classes

Feldmanns KO2 with swords was gazetted in the Milit?rwochenblatt at the 28th of October 1916.

...and maybe to solve the problem with his 2 rank pips....

What about the idea that this in an upgraded pic as he was still a colonel and later the Generals collar boards were "airbrushed" in. Would not be the first time that a pic was "promoted".

Best regards

Daniel

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't think so. The detail of the 4 side bumps and triple cords is PERFECT everywhere on the image... and leaving lower rank pips on top of such exactly perfect artwork makes no sense. It's got to be a photograph of real insignia.

He's wearing General der (Etwas) boards-- when he never reached that rank!!!!!

[Daniel Krause]

Actually he MIGHT have reached that rank and we do not know.

In the Weimar time they did not publish character promotions anymore.

Who was it - I think Schleicher - we know he was a General der Infanterie from his gravestone! Glenn tried to find his promotion date for quite a time and did not find it.

Best regards

Daniel

[speedytop]

Hi,

I can report about a high decorated German General.

1917 Generalmajor

1919 mit der gesetzlichen Pension und dem Charakter als Generalleutnant zur Disposition gestelllt

1939 Charakter als General der Infanterie

However, this last rank is noted officially, e.g. in the "Lexikon der deutschen Generale".

But on some web pages he is noted with the last rank Generalleutnant.

Regards

Uwe

[Guest Rick Research]

Yeah but THOSE were--

1) "Tannenbergtag" promotions ONLY for Pour le Merite holders, just as the Second war was about to start-- "jubilee" promotions anticipating the need for new war heroes

or

2) NAZI guys like Wilhelm Reinhard (he skipped up THREE ranks! )