Heer The Duenkirchen Shield

[Peter BL]

Hi All......recently showed this shield to one of the forum members who gave it the thumbs-up.

Any opinions welcome.........Thanks........Peter

Edited October 16, 2007 by Peter Baillie

[Paul R]

Hi Peter,

Welcome to the GMIC!

Thank you for posting your shield. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this shield was not an official award and was not awarded during WW2. I believe this to be a fantasy piece that was made after the war.

Regards

Paul

[Peter BL]

Hi Paul, thanks for the post......The Dunkirk shield was definately not a fantasy piece and was indeed authorised by the Commanding office vice-Admiral Frisius...... Entries in Solbuchs have been found and award docs are known to exist, although rare.

KR.........Peter

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Paul, thanks for the post......The Dunkirk shield was definately not a fantasy piece and was indeed authorised by the Commanding office vice-Admiral Frisius...... Entries in Solbuchs have been found and award docs are known to exist, although rare.

KR.........Peter

Hallo Gents,

in Mr. Robin Lumsden's book from 1987 "A Collector's Guide to Third Reich Militaria. page 34:

" The Duenkirchenschild was created by Admiral Frisius, the Channel Coast Commander, for the 14,000 defenders of

Dunkirk, which, like the Lorient, remained in German hands until the armistice. Poorly stamped from sheet copper with edge

holes, the Duenkirchenschild bore a watch tower, waves and chain links with the inscription "Duenkirchen 1944".

Only about 50 were manufactured and awarded to Luftwaffe ground troops and navel personnel. No fakes of this

shield have come to light.*

* As this was stated in 1987, I believe it to be no longer a relevant statement, with the number of Fake Nazi Items that can be encountered in the year 2007

Peter yours seems to have traces of Gilt?

And I think Paul was saying the item pictured is a modern Fantasy reproduction, and not that he disbelieves in its creation back in WW2.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Peter BL]

It's a rare one alright Kevin, but in 4 years collecting campaign shields, I've never encountered another one of these. As for the number awarded....no-one really knows for sure but estimates are between 50 and a 100.

Peter

Edited October 28, 2007 by Peter Baillie

[Paul R]

Thanks for setting me straight guys. I thought for sure that this shield was one of those made up types. I learned something new today!

[Gordon Williamson]

Certainly not a fantasy, these were definitely made and awarded. However they were NOT campaign shields in the same sense as the Krim. Kuban etc. Period evidence, in the form of Soldbuch entries, suggests that these were worn on the side of the field cap as a "M?tzenabzeichen" somewhat analogous to a KM traditions badge and were absolutely not officialy authorised awards.

[Peter BL]

Thanks for that Gordon.....you're right of course, these weren't campaign shields but it's suggested these were awarded to soldiers who took part in operation Blucher (disrupting Allied ops), that could explain why so few were awarded......incidentally,the quote from the Robin Lumsden book, that these awards were made from sheet copper is inaccurate as they were made from locally sourced thin brass.

I guess that just leaves the question whether this award is original.......

Edited October 28, 2007 by Peter Baillie

[Robin Lumsden]

Thanks for that Gordon.....you're right of course, these weren't campaign shields but it's suggested these were awarded to soldiers who took part in operation Blucher (disrupting Allied ops), that could explain why so few were awarded......incidentally,the quote from the Robin Lumsden book, that these awards were made from sheet copper is inaccurate as they were made from locally sourced thin brass.

I guess that just leaves the question whether this award is original.......

Peter.

In my humble opinion, your shield is original.

Others will disagree.

[nesredep]

Peter.

In my humble opinion, your shield is original.

Others will disagree.

Hello!

I agree.

Best regards

Nesredep

[Peter BL]

Peter.

In my humble opinion, your shield is original.

Others will disagree.

Thanks for the on this shield.....I bought the piece about 3 years ago as an original but didn't realise how rare the Dunkirk shield was.

Now all I need is the Award doc.....

KR..........Peter

[Taurus454]

It looks original. I would have to get my copy out and compare it. I bought mine over 20 years ago when in Germany. I had offers for it from Ailsby and Angola. It was also authenticated by a dealer in Munich. I have the document set, to my knowledge, from the recipient and have the only annotation in the Soldbuch which indicates where it is to be worn.

Best regards,

Tom

[Peter BL]

Hi Tom...I'd definitely like to see your example and compare them.

KR...Peter

[nesredep]

Hello!

Very interesting thread. :jumping:

All the best

Morten.

[Phil Steele]

Hi Pete,

Interesting thread and you have had some good comments regarding the shield from guys with far more knowledge than I but to me it is not a period piece. I know that carries no weight whatsoever but I put these items in the same category as Balloon Observers, Luftwaffe tank badges and yes the Lorient shield. According to what I have read all these very late war items have listings in soldbuchs and even an award document (although I personally have never seen such an award document) but no one can show hard evidence (photo) of any soldier wearing one. Maybe this is archaic in my opinions but too many fantasy pieces getting around in this hobby. But its like Frank Huekemes once said..if you like it and think its genuine then everyone else can get F@#ked.

If it is indeed genuine (and I cant see how you will ever prove it 100%) then what a great addition to your collection. Sorry to be sceptical but mate I dont really believe all these sniper patches are genuine either.

All the best

Phil

[Peter BL]

Hi Pete,

Interesting thread and you have had some good comments regarding the shield from guys with far more knowledge than I but to me it is not a period piece. I know that carries no weight whatsoever but I put these items in the same category as Balloon Observers, Luftwaffe tank badges and yes the Lorient shield. According to what I have read all these very late war items have listings in soldbuchs and even an award document (although I personally have never seen such an award document) but no one can show hard evidence (photo) of any soldier wearing one. Maybe this is archaic in my opinions but too many fantasy pieces getting around in this hobby. But its like Frank Huekemes once said..if you like it and think its genuine then everyone else can get F@#ked.

If it is indeed genuine (and I cant see how you will ever prove it 100%) then what a great addition to your collection. Sorry to be sceptical but mate I dont really believe all these sniper patches are genuine either.

All the best

Phil

Hi Phil...that's ok, everyone's entitled to there opinion. All I'd say is this award/tradition badge, although rare is well documented with soldbuch entries and award citations. In fact these semi official/Unofficial awards/tradition badges were more common than you'd think..there just not well documented.

Best...Peter

Edited April 20, 2010 by Peter Baillie

[PKeating]

This shield looks absolutely fine to me. There are a couple of examples here in Paris, one of which is with the supporting paperwork, including the entry in the man's paybook. They are said to have been worn on fieldcaps, rather like tradition badges. I agree with Phil Steele about the other badges and awards he mentioned but the Lorient Shield was produced. Period examples are known and documented. There was even a French nurse who emerged from the pocket after the surrender with a couple in her possession but it seems to have been treated more as an unofficial keepsake than an actual award, rather like those Gebirgsjäger and Luftwaffe medallions and plaques produced by local commanders or even at regimental and battalion level, otherwise we would surely know of entries in paybooks and perhaps even award documents.

PK

Edited April 21, 2010 by PKeating

[Phil Steele]

Well Pete there you go...you have shown me the first award document I have ever seen concerning some of the more controversial pieces. Nice document and rare I would think. I am pleased that you have this shield and maybe you are all correct about them being made during the last stages of the war. However until I see a snapshot with a group of happy soldiers posing with one on their caps they are not for me.

Take care my friend.

Phil

[joe campbell]

Well Pete there you go...you have shown me the first award document I have ever seen concerning some of the more controversial pieces. Nice document and rare I would think. I am pleased that you have this shield and maybe you are all correct about them being made during the last stages of the war. However until I see a snapshot with a group of happy soldiers posing with one on their caps they are not for me.

Take care my friend.

Phil

i'm not sure that there WERE many

groups of happy soldiers posing at

this point in the war....

joe

[Peter BL]

Well that grouping's incredible Michel...sorry to use your citation, it's been on my database for so long I'd forgotten where I'd copied it from.

And thanks for all the comments...an interesting thread:beer:

Very best...Peter

[Phil Steele]

Yes I agree there probably wouldnt be many happy soldiers at this stage of the war however, they seemed to be happy enough to come up with unofficial shields, award documents and the like. And Germans being Germans (no offense intended) there always seemed to be time for a snapshot or two irrespective of the circumstances. There were plenty of photos taken during the various encirclements on the eastern front ie Demjansk and Cholm and I would have thought that under those circumstances they may have had more on their minds than taking pictures. As said until I see a snapshot of one being worn then such items are not for me but hey that doesnt mean they are not period made items. Cheers

Phil

[2dresq]

These shields as everyone can agree, contain tons of controversy. To me, I believe that these if they are period pieces are much like the WW1 trench art, or the over-sized constructed KC for U-boat crews. They are of course, quite desirable. It would be interesting to see if there was a test to see when the metal was formed. Sort of like a C.S.I Militaria deal.

In today's world of fakes and forgeries, I am always and will always remain skeptical until, some other proof can be obtained.

Both Michael and Peter's examples shared do look convincing though...

Regards,

2dresq

[Peter BL]

These shields as everyone can agree, contain tons of controversy. To me, I believe that these if they are period pieces are much like the WW1 trench art, or the over-sized constructed KC for U-boat crews. They are of course, quite desirable. It would be interesting to see if there was a test to see when the metal was formed. Sort of like a C.S.I Militaria deal.

In today's world of fakes and forgeries, I am always and will always remain skeptical until, some other proof can be obtained.

Both Michael and Peter's examples shared do look convincing though...

Regards,

2dresq

Hi Justin..I agree these pieces are and always will be controversial but only because so few were made and so little is documented,for me, seeing Michel's grouping nails the existence and originality of this award (and mine in particular).

Best...Peter

[PKeating]

There are very few photographs of happy, smiling soldiers from the siege pockets like Dunkirk, Lorient and Royan because photographic materials were a restricted resource. There are a few images in the archives that were intended for propaganda purposes but it was hard to get material in and out after a certain time, particularly in the case of Dunkirk, because of Allied air and sea superiority. Maybe there is a photograph somewhere of the Dunkirk Shield worn on the side of field caps or side hats. Maybe there is a roll of film somewhere of an award ceremony. However, for the moment, we have only a few eyewitness accounts of a handful of German personnel observed by Free Czech soldiers and attached FFI and FFL interpreters and the indisputable nature of the period award documents and paybook entries to support the contention that these little badges are genuine. As far as I am concerned, they are genuine - as long as they conform to certain manufacturing characteristics, of course - and the low number observed over more than three decades underscores my belief. It is like the French-made KM War Badges, which, amusingly, are now being faked in France: many people do not believe them to be period pieces as there are no photos of them being worn. Given that they were probably one of many product ranges inspired by the promotion of the idea of a Franco-German alliance as a building block for the New Europe, they were probably made late in 1940 or, more likely, early in 1941, and would have fallen victim to the tightening of rules in March 1941 by the German authorities governing the retail sale of awards. This would explain why the majority of them were consigned to the basement of the naval HQ in Paris, to be found there in the 1970s. Very logical. There was talk of someone seeing a German PK photo in the ECPA-D archives of three KM sailors in La Baule on leave, one of whom is wearing the Bacqueville-made Destroyer Badge on his walking-out dress, but nobody has yet located it and ordered a copy. Photographic evidence, as Phil Steele points out, is an important part of deciding the authenticity of insignia or, at least, if the insignia in question existed at the time. There were some hamfisted attempts to create some photos of a man wearing an Army Balloonist Badge but by and large, there don't seem to have been any serious attempts at this sort of fraud in our circles, bar one photo of a man wearing a type of Waffen-SS cuff title that some people contend existed but which never could have existed because it was not instituted by the Führer or Reichsführer-SS and, in any case, the unit in question was in the main a disciplinary unit. But the photographic prints exist and they are good enough to have convinced some normally skeptical people of their period authenticity. There again, if original materials are used - and more of these were available when the images first came to light - the results can be convincing. The other possibility is that these photos are wartime and that the man in them or a group of men from his unit had these cuff titles made up - they clearly involve RZM-type bands - but no veteran of the unit recalls anyone playing around with unauthorised unit cuff titles. Wearing something like that would have been quite a serious offence, given that it was essentially an award in the gift of Hitler or Himmler. Not good to get caught doing something like that. Anyway, my point is that photos are an important component and can often tip the scales but they are not necessarily an end in themselves.

PK

PK

[Wood]

Great information and pictures.

Michel, any chance of seeing a picture of the Lorient shield?

Pete

Edited April 27, 2010 by wood