Megan Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 am getting VERY confused with the Bavarian Milit?r Verdienstorden.Now, I know it has 3 ribbons - White with black and blue edge stripes (Wartime awards), white with blue edge stripes (Peacetime awards) or white with black edges and a blue central stripe (Military Officials).Did wartime awards only come with swords?Could a peacetime award come with swords?Could Military Officials receive swords? Or did they always?I have some beautiful pictures from Morton & Eden, but these include a Grand Cross with Swords on the peactime ribbon - is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I have some beautiful pictures from Morton & Eden, but these include a Grand Cross with Swords on the peactime ribbon - is this correct?Good news to start: you're not the only one who is very confused about this. I know some but am not absolutely sure with most, others might correct me - at least I hope they do, if I'm wrong. Until 1891, there were NO swords at all. Even war time awards for bravery were without swords, and those who got their MVOs and MVKs for bravery were allowed to upgrate their decorations in 1891 with private purchased swords. From what I know, (Great) War time awards came always with swords, peace time awards always without. Furthermore, there were (almost*) no different ribbons until 1913. All decorations, even with swords were worn on the ribbon that we call "peace time ribbon". The "Kriegsband" and "Kriegsband f?r Beamten" were created in 1913. The ribbon on the "Morton & Eden" grand cross fits, when the cross is pre 1913. *the first class apparently used another ribbon than the Grand cross, but it is though a peace time ribbon/ribbon for crosses without swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Just to clarify...awards with all three ribbons COULD have come with and without swords.... As Sascha said, until 1913 the varieties were ALL on the "statute ribbon"--white with a blue stripe near each end.The M1913 Orders on war merit and frontline valour ribbons used during the World War could both, I think, come--in rather odd cases--with or without swords--though I've never seen a frontline Order without. Ribbon bars frequently have no swords at all, but that is merely a Fashion Statement. Statute ribbon on M1905 colonial Military Merit Cross 2nd Class with Xs; frontline ribbon on WW1 M1913 Mil Merit Cross 1st Class with Xs-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammlerchris1 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hello Rick,can you post better Pictures from the MVK?s? The backsides are necessary.Regards,Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 No-- they are sewn down tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammlerchris1 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 No-- they are sewn down tight.Doesn?t matter. I need just a picture from the backside. It?s enough.That will plaese me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 But, before we get drawn down into these often-snarly arcane issues . . . what about Megan's question? (Something I'd also like to clarify and see clarified.) How about a basic typology (binomial key?) of the MVO, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammlerchris1 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 OK. It?s right. Not further questions.Sascha said all, and i?m out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Guess that wasn't even an effort to answer the question, was it? Gentlemen??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 The back: A larger assortment of types of MVO/MVK ribbons and devices (or not)--Top: Generalmajor Wolfgang Freiherr zu Inn- und- Knyphausen( 1866-1926), wartime Inspector of Infantry Small Arms. In last place, his pre-war MMO4 with Crown (initial award, by rank) on the statute ribbon. WW1 frontline ribbons can be found as "fashion statements" with crowns but no swords worn on a ribbon, even though the actual Order had them-- but I don't have one for that wartime style.2nd row: as yet unidentified group (Major aD Hachmann of Inf Rgt 47 had an XXV, I'm quite sure, so maybe Hptm aD Gustav von Holtzendorff of 2. GRzF) with BOTH a wartime frontline MMO4X and the same from before the war on the end. Next: a Bavarian NCO's bar with "combat" Iron Cross in first place, a war merit MMC ribbon without swords (maybe, or just fashion statement no device?) and Bavarian long service award.3rd row: the WW1 MMC1X on frontline ribbon and MMC2X M1905 for Southwest Africa on statute ribbon bar again. Next: Prussian EK2, Saxon Albert Order (Knight 1st)X, Bavarian MMO4X war merit ribbon, and Hamburg Hanseatic-- to one of three Imperial Feldpost officials (the Hamburg roll may resolve this)-- so a "combat mail supervisor," eh? Bottom: an NCO's ribbon bar-- frontline ribbon (fashion statement no Xs device), EK2 Saxon Friedrich August Medal, and Bavarian Long Service award.Last two David SSo, those war merit ribbons are quite odd, even when the recipient is known. I would have EXPECTED a senior administrative official like the Feldpost Beamter to have received the war merit ribbon on an Order without swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Until 1891, there were NO swords at all. Even war time awards for bravery were without swords, and those who got their MVOs and MVKs for bravery were allowed to upgrate their decorations in 1891 with private purchased swords.And here he is: a vet of 1870/71 on a post 1891 photo, his MVO - back then just one class, silver with golden medaillons, blue enemaled - updated with swords: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccj Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) And here he is: a vet of 1870/71 on a post 1891 photo, his MVP - back then just one class, silver with golden medallions, blue enemaled - updated with swords:Now I'm confused. I didn't realize there were three ribbon types and swords could be worn with all three. I thought one was peacetime and one wartime. I need to find my ribbon chart again. I lost it last year. Are there any books available that correctly show all Imperial German state ribbons?Is the below site's ribbon chart accurate?http://www.bundesverdienstorden.de/ Edited December 1, 2007 by ccj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 These used to come out every time the Nimmergut Official Price Guides did, but apparently haven't been printed in years. This is the ONLY source for ALL imperial German ribbons: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccj Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 These used to come out every time the Official Price Guides did, but apparently haven't been printed in years. This is the ONLY source for ALL imperial German ribbons: Do you need my address? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 These used to come out every time the Nimmergut Official Price Guides did, but apparently haven't been printed in years. This is the ONLY source for ALL imperial German ribbons:Rick,I might add that the the material/information in the B?nderkatalog is also available in Nimmergut?s more recently published Magnum Opus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 SLIGHTLY more expensive then anbd not as easily used as a pocket reference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 For sure and the ribbon table pertains only to the decorations in each particular volume; but they are out there and more available,,, at a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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