Four Ribbons For Two Officers

[Guest Rick Research]

After an all day slugfest with the scattered sources, here is anothuh winnuh from the David S Mystery Recipients Collection. Because we have seen officers leave OFF 1 ribbon from short bars

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=22165

there are TWO Possible Suspects for this Saxon officer's ribbon bar

Using the late Erhard Roth's Saxon Orders rolls and his career biographical study of Saxon officers from captains up, the official 1936/1964 Saint Henry Order citations book, and the Saxe-Meiningen War Honor Cross roll labouriously transcribed and annotated by Yours Truly, it comes down to

1) EXACT MATCH:

Moritz Johannes Francke, born 9.12.1879 Zwickau

F?hnrich 23.1.02

Leutnant 26.10.02 vorpatentiert 28.10.01

Oberleutnant 24.9.10

Hauptmann 1.10.13

aD 31.3.20

charakterisiert Major aD 15.2.21

StH-R 15.11.17: in line at Bezonvaux, Verdun, led a night patrol 20/21.10.17 to take prisoners for intelligence, returning with 1 officer and 8 enlisted men prisoners and obtaining vital information.

Crown to SA3aX 10.8.17 as Hptm in Saxon RIR 245

SA3aX 22.12.14 as Hptm in Saxon IR 133

SMK 14.5.15: as Hptm in Saxon IR 133

1.10.13 company commander in Saxon Inf Rgt 133

August 1917 in Saxon Res Inf Rgt 245

November 1917 Battalion Commander in Saxon Res Inf Rgt 245 of 192nd Inf Div

2) MATCH IF SAXON XXV YEARS SERVICE CROSS NOT WORN:

Ernst Hermann Otto Karl Lemmerzahl, born 7.6.1868 Saalfeld, Thuringia

Leutnant 7.9.89

Oberleutnant 25.2.97

Hauptmann 23.11.02

Major 1.10.12

zD 6.8.15

iD 13.10.17

Oberstleutnant 13.10.17

aD 31.3.20

StH-R 20.10.15: held the line under heaviest enemy fire at Givenchy en Gohelle near Souchy in September 1915 as commander of II/Sax Feldart Rgt 245, 123rd Inf Div

Crown to SA3aX 8.8.15: Maj zD, former Battalion Commander in Sax Feldart Rgt 78

Xs to SA3a 10.2.15: Maj Sax Feldart Rgt 78

(SA3a 23.5.12)

SMK 18.8.15: aktiv Maj II/ KS Feldart Rgt 78

Sax XXV: 1913

1.10.12-30.9.13 battalion commander Saxon Feldart Rgt 28

1.10.13-5.8.15 battalion commander Sax Feldart Rgt 78

by September 1915 commander IInd battalion/Sax Feldart Rgt 245

13.10.17-20.4.18 commander of sax Res Feldart Rgt 32

1918 commander of Saxon Feldart Rgt 28

Each of these TWO--and no others?could have worn this ribbon bar.

Totals for these awards during the First World War were:

Saxon Order of Saint Henry-Knight (StH-R) = 2,717

Saxon Albert Order-Knight 1st Class with Swords and Crown (all 4 possible combinations) (SA3aXmKR) = 1,459

Saxe-Meiningen War Honor Cross (SMK) = 3,950, of which 537 went to Saxon officers

[Paul C]

Rick, That is very similiar to one I have. Here is a pic.

[webr55]

Very interesting! Rick, is there a reason why Francke - as a Saxon native - did not get an SV?

Edited October 15, 2007 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

Cheapness. I suspect it cost less to give a Crown to an Albert than hand out a Merit Order-- at least from the numbers awarded.

Paul's bar comes down to FOUR officers, with the Crown to the SA3aX being what makes the crucial distinction. There were many more SV3aX/SA3aX pairs with the StH-R and SMK. *

Oberstleutnant Maximilian Albert Schumann (1869-1925), battalion commander in KS Inf Rgt 133 1914-16, then KS Inf Rgt 181 in 1916, and commander of KS Inf Ers Rgts 32 (1917) and 32 (1918): IF he left off his Saxon XXV and pre-war Prussian RAO4mKr and KO4. (See Erythropel thread etc etc etc)

Major Johannes K?ckens (b. 1871), killed in action as commander of KS Inf Rgt 105 on 15 July 1918: exact match on awards.

Major C/K onrad von R?diger (1877-19 ) of Sch?tzen Rgt 108 and commander of Res Jgr Bn 25 1916-18-- if he did not wear a pre-war Hessian Philipps Order.

char. Oberstleutnant aD Otto K. A. Schmidt (1874-19 ) of KS Inf Rgt 134: exact match on awards.

The devices are distinctly enough positioned on Paul's ribbon bar (really lowwwwwwwwwwwww SA3aXmKr device! ) that a good clear straight-on portrait photo in a WW1 regimental history would identify one of these officers if he had his photograph taken wearing this bar.

* Finding a Crown on an Albert with Swords immediately indicates that it IS the Knight 1st Class. If there was no crown, plain old Xs could make an otherwise identical group: StH-R, SV3aX, SA3aX etc versus StH-R, SV3bX, SA3bX-- about a 500% increase in the Suspects List.

Being lazy, I am always glad to see a crowned Albert.

At some far off future Happy Day, all Saxon officer groups will be entered on a database making it a simple matter of typing in the combination to get the answers. As it is now, ALL officers have to be checked. I've pencilled in scribblies for the 400 SV3aX recipients as a short cut, but Saxon is far outside my usual research areas.

Daniel is working on eventually re-doing Erhard Roth's Saxon WW1 rolls in our imminently-to-be-published books format, so ALL Saxon wartime Orders will be cross-entered against every recipient's name, making it immediately possible to exclude officers who did NOT have this or that award rather than having to go through every single officer for every single class of every single Order. It's dull, tedious, weary LONG work to get to a point where things are instantaneous and easy.

[Paul C]

Thanks Rick, So I need to check the following Saxon unit histories for a pic:

Oberstleutnant Maximilian Albert Schumann (1869-1925)

KS Inf Rgt 133

KS Inf Rgt 181

KS Inf Ers Rgts 32

Major Johannes K?ckens (b. 1871)

KS Inf Rgt 105

Major C/K onrad von R?diger (1877-19 )

Sch?tzen Rgt 108

Res Jgr Bn 25

char. Oberstleutnant aD Otto K. A. Schmidt (1874-19 )

KS Inf Rgt 134

Does anyone have any of these unit histories and can look for a pic? Whoever is first to find a pic of the person wearing ribbon bar I have get a one of my ranklist CDs for free!!!

[IR 134]

Thanks Rick, So I need to check the following Saxon unit histories for a pic:

char. Oberstleutnant aD Otto K. A. Schmidt (1874-19 )

KS Inf Rgt 134

Does anyone have any of these unit histories and can look for a pic? Whoever is first to find a pic of the person wearing ribbon bar I have get a one of my ranklist CDs for free!!!

I?ve checked IR 134th history. I?m sorry to tell you that there is no pic.

Gru? Stefan

[IR 134]

One Question: the biografical study from E. Roth about saxon officers named above: What is the exat citation? Is it possible to buy?

Gru? Stefan

[Deruelle]

There is nothing in the Sachsen in Grosser Zeit.

Regards

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Stefan: Erhard Roth self-published this volume in only a very few copies in ? the 1990s (there is no date on it, only his home address in Leipzig). I'm working from a xeroxed copy.

Unfortunately, when he died in 2005 EVERYTHING he had done and was working on, with all of his research files was thrown away.

As a result of that terrible, wasteful loss, we have NO idea where he got much of his information from, nor can we duplicate it.

Roth typed the whole thing. The cover is from a Saxon Rangliste, with "K?NIGLICH S?CHSISCHES OFFIZIERKORPS" typed below the Saxon state shield. There is no other title. I think he ran off xeroxed copies himself (the originals are in spiral bindings) and never registered it with an ISBN number as an official "book." These must have been sold by him face-to-face with people who wanted one.

Rick