EK 1939 Attributed RK

[François SAEZ]

Attributed to:

Major

Wohlers, Heinrich

* 16.03.1912 Altkloster, Krs. Stade

+ 15.03.1944 b. Echterdingen/W?rtemberg

Ritterkreuz am: 31.12.1943

als: Hauptmann

Funktion: Kommandeur I./NJG 6

[François SAEZ]

a

[François SAEZ]

b

[François SAEZ]

c

[Ed_Haynes]

Curious outsider's question: For an unnamed, unnumbered, undocumented award, on what basis are RK collectors able to "attribute" these? Provenance? With what sort or proof and/or documentation?

[François SAEZ]

Curious outsider's question: For an unnamed, unnumbered, undocumented award, on what basis are RK collectors able to "attribute" these? Provenance? With what sort or proof and/or documentation?

Well, if having the rest of the group is not enough ...........

There are other criterias .................

Did you make a search on this forum or on WAF to see more ............. but are you really interested?

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, I am, Francois. I come to this from a number of collecting fields where attribution is more than just word of mouth and intoning "trust me". Sorry, though, if my question offended you. Feel free to ignore it.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Yes, I am, Francois. I come to this from a number of collecting fields where attribution is more than just word of mouth and intoning "trust me". Sorry, though, if my question offended you. Feel free to ignore it.

I think we share one of those fields....

Would you consider DSO's, MC's, OBE's, unnamed WW2 sets etc etc unatributed? A MC, 39-45 star, Burma star, war medal etc... no manes, but with stuff from the man, letters etc are just a pile of unnamed trinkets that can gladly be sold of separately?

If you get a group with breast stars do you sell them off as you have no names on them to attribute them?

Do your middle eastern bars have names and the gongs and do you split them up?

I can find many unnamed British awards... can these all be separated from their groups with no pangs of conscience?

And in this field where attribution is worth more than just word of mouth DNW gets the occasional fortune on the strenght of a named cardboard box and accompanying letter with unnamed medals to a dambuster.

Can I split out the first and last two on this bar? They are not named?

[Ed_Haynes]

No I surely wouldn't split these up, and I'm sure you knew that before you even asked your question, but without pretty solid evidence of provenance (and not just a named box or an assertion from a dealer or a collector), I wouldn't trust a WWII British unnamed group. Anyone who collects British awards knows what to look for and what to ignore in establishing provenance for British WWII groups. There is a lot of risk and a lot of trust involved and you can never be certain with anything unnamed. It is just that if I showed you a single GV DSO and claimed it belonged to T. E. Lawrence (even assuming he ever got his), I'd think you be fully justified in asking how I think I know that and asking me to prove it. What would constitute a standard of evidence? And what are the legitimate limits of "restoration". Some of it may be benign, but I'd hope we could agree -- at least -- that completely "reconstituting" a group of all unnamed medals around no more than a stack of paper gets pretty tawdry?

Some groups, you may never know, and it would be fraudulent and delusional to assert absolute knowledge. Other groups (especially if they come direct from the family) you may know more surely, but having a letter or statement accompanying them would seem a nice touch if you ever expect anyone to believe you.

And, of course, when you have a period-mounted, part-named group with legitimately unnamed items (or things like breast stars or neck badges), I'd feel they should stay together, though dealers and collectors frequantly split them off for profit, feeling they can always be "replaced".

I was simply trying to understand what standards of evidence apply in other phaleristic fields, but not I am really getting sorry I asked my question . . .

[Chris Boonzaier]

For me it is the stuff that come with the medal.

When I ebay an Iron Cross document with a passbook, an Iron cross, some letters from the guy whose document and milit?rpass they were, etc. etc. rather complete and no reason to suspect a put-together

I usually keep it together.

If I buy a simple Iron Cross doc with an iron cross.... I toss the cross in a drawer ans split them up.

I think it is a question of Fingerspitzengefuhl.

[Bear]

Hello Francois,

Did the major get the RK for combat action or for being a good field commander. Any other photos in the group.

thanks,

barry