Mystery Patch driving the guys on the Great War Forum Nuts

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents

this one has the lads at the G.W.F. Great War Forum stumped.

Any ideas on Identification please?

Kevin in Deva.

[Ulsterman]

I think it's a UVF badge for the 11th battalion from 1912-14.

[Michael Johnson]

See? I told you I thought there was a numeral missing!

[Kev in Deva]

I think it's a UVF badge for the 11th battalion from 1912-14.

There was a comment passed on the GWR, by member "Kevinaka1888" that the hand is opposite to that of the Red Hand of Ulster:

I dont think it has anything to do with the Ulster Division because its the left hand on the badge the Ulster Division use the right hand.

Kevin in Deva.

[Ed_Haynes]

Why -- in the world -- would people want to go to this "GWF" thing when they could come HERE for wisdom and enlightenment!??!?

[Kev in Deva]

Now Ed! nothing wrong with a little cross-fertilization to help the roses grow. Kevin in Deva.

Edited November 8, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Ulsterman]

ooooh-good point, I was going on memory there.

I don't know now-

off to the book stacks....

(about the badge-not the GWF- a brilliant forum I might add)

Edited November 8, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Ed_Haynes]

Cross fertilization . . . fertiliser . . . spread it thick and wide and deep . . . dandy . . . but never forget that the FOUNT OF ALL KNOWLEDGE FLOWS FROM . . . here!! Right??

[Ed_Haynes]

(about the badge-not the GWF- a brilliant forum I might add)

My efforts at asking questions -- OK, about non-Europeans, outside Europe in the Great War -- at the GWF have come up at 0.0% joy.

[Chris Boonzaier]

My efforts at asking questions -- OK, about non-Europeans, outside Europe in the Great War -- at the GWF have come up at 0.0% joy.

Well I tell you one thing .... they certainly have more women than we do... so they must be doing SOMETHING right????

[Guest Rick Research]

Manufacturer's error? Heraldic issue (worn on left shoulder?) What OTHER Red Hand IS there?

[Ulsterman]

My efforts at asking questions -- OK, about non-Europeans, outside Europe in the Great War -- at the GWF have come up at 0.0% joy.

Well, they are a bit of a narrow field, but Chris is right-any forum with over a score of regularly contributing ladies can't be bad. I would very much like to see a couple more subfora-like "South Africa, India, Australia, N.Z., Canada, America, Rumania , etc. but it's always an interesting read. That topic thread about Grandpas' trunk was brilliant.

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is not really "Europe in the great war" The major thrust is not collectors, to a certain extent not even pure military history. Very many people there are into local research (Their family, their village etc.) as such it concentrates mostly on British troops in Brit sectors. There is of course a lot of other stuff. All in all a great forum.

I think it is our celestial twin forum....

[Ed_Haynes]

That was my sense ... not so much historical or phaleristic as genealogical. My interests (Indian troops in Egypt. in Gallipoli, in Mesopotamia in East Africa or elsewhere) fell flat . . . SLAT. Might be no particular surprise?

Good forum, for sure, but every forum has its own limiting boundaries? And one must learn through experiment the strengths/weaknesses of each.

[Graham Stewart]

I'm a member both here and the GWF and have to say that I enjoy both Forums, although as Ed has pointed out they all come with weaknesses and strengths. The GWF does tend to be more for family/historical researchers both amateur and the more serious, rather than collectors and can seem to be more biased towards the European side of the conflict, which was only natural I suppose.

However I believe there are other allied WWI Forums which specialise on their home Nation, such as the "C.E.F. Study Group", and their members also tend to drift to the GWF occassionally, although I'm not 100% certain if Australia and New Zealand also have a similar WWI Forum.

Ed,

While the GWF may not be able to cater fully for your Indian troop interests, I'm also a member of the Military Historical Society, which does have strong leanings towards that sort of research area and occassionally organise trips to our old colonial haunts. Perhaps contact with them may help you out?

On another note for British & Indian Divisions serving in those area have you got Beckes "Order of Battle" and also Perry's two later additions which covered Empire troops, as the Indian one is excellent.

I'm also in contact with a young Pakistani Doctor who has a great interest in our military fairs in India and especially our old hill stations and is I believe a member of a group trying to save them from destruction. Recently I supplied him with a load of pre-WWI photo's from the regimental journals of the Northumberland Fusiliers, and ironically the photgrapher was the great grandfather of his friend.

[Graham Stewart]

PS

Almost forgot I think the battle patch is actually 36th Bn, MGC. An MGC researcher friend of mine was given a Pay Book with a patch from a family. The 'X' under closer scrutiny is I believe crossed Vickers Machine Guns and not numerals 'XI'. The use of 'X' in battle patches was quite common among MGC units.

I'll try and persuade him to scan his patch which is in very good condition.

[Graham Stewart]

Well here is the battle patch of 'A' Coy,36th Bn,Machine Gun Corps which belongs to my mate and was formerly owned by 12252 CSM Wiliam Carpenter, D.C.M., who had been posted to 107th Bde Machine Gun Company, M.G.C., 36th(Ulster)Division in 1918.

As you can see, I was mistaken about them being the same although both colour & shape are similar and the above is a later 1918 badge. On reflection I still think that the badge illustrated in this post is one of the M.G.Company badges of the 36th Div, prior to the formation of 36th Bn,M.G.C. and that the 'X' isn't a numeral but stylised crossed Vickers machine guns.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

A more clearer size.

Graham.

[Laurence Strong]

Red over Blue are the colors for the Artillery. The badge is from 36 Division; to be more precise it's that of X.36 Medium Mortar Battery RFA.

<a href="http://www.1914-1918.net/36div.htm" target="_blank">http://www.1914-1918.net/36div.htm</a>

Scroll down to the bottm and look at Div Arty.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Laurence Strong

[Guest Rick Research]

Intresting to note that BOTH patchs shown above have LEFT Red Hands.

[Ulsterman]

Yeah. Very unusual. Great thread !

[Chris Boonzaier]

Intresting to note that BOTH patchs shown above have LEFT Red Hands.

A sure symbol of poor toilet training

[Graham Stewart]

Well after a good two hour search in the loft I can announce that Laurence is correct and it is 'X'/36 Medium Trench Mortar Battery, R.A. and not associated with the MGC. However the colours are red over black and not red over blue which is always associated with artillery units.

What clinched it was an article in the Military Illustrated from August 1991 by Michael Chappell entitled "Irish Divisions in the Great War" and as part of the article he did a superb double page spread of some of his artwork relating to 36th Div, which included a mass of battle patches belonging to the Division.

Graham.

Edited November 9, 2007 by Graham Stewart

[Laurence Strong]

Actually the credit goes to a Richard Woods of Liverpool. I saw the same thread on a different forum. It's his answer, I added the link.

[Kev in Deva]

To all concerned,

The Milky Bars are on me in the Lounge, no pushing, no shoving and watch out for the spurs on the new rugs,

and no horses in the bar

Kevin in Deva