Purple Heart

[Laurence Strong]

Air Medals were based on missions flown or hours flown, in various capacities. That's the part that's easy to follow. After that it gets very confusing.

In the Air Force in VIetnam, fighter crews generally got an Air Medal for 5 combat sorties; airlifters got them based on hours flown. The number of missions required also varied over time. I know several forward air controllers who worn multiple ribbons to hold their Air Medal oak leaf clusters.

At the same time, the Army awarded Air Medals to those who had duties involved regular flights, but who were not aircrew (e.g., unit commanders using helicopters for on-scene command posts). The ARmy went to numbers instead of oak leaf clusters to manage the display of additional awards.

34 Air Medals is not unusual at all. I knew several with 70+ and the highest number I recall seeing was 124 awards.

Also, the stars on campaign medals represent specific campaigns. These campaigns are designated by each service by specific dates and geographic boundaries (to earn the star, you had to be in the area within the dates).

There are so many exceptions, amendments and changes to the rules, hoever, that is no short answer to the questions.

Would love to see photo's of that.

[W McSwiggan]

Interesting that we've wandered off the Purple Heart to Air Medals. Oh well - thread wandering happens.

At any rate, I hold 34 Air Medals - mix of "Merit" for hours and Valor. I do not consider myself particularly special amongst my peers. If the ribbon or medal has a V on it (I'm speaking from the Army perspective), then some or all are for valor with no way of telling the ratio without asking.

Awards for hours depended on type of mission. 25 hours of Combat Assault time got a medal. 50 hours of Combat Support. 100 hours of Combat Servive Support.

Infantrymen involved in Airmobile Assaults received Air Medals after a number of CAs but I do not recall the number.

My rack is posted in the "Post Your Own" thread. Again - nothing special but illustrates the proper wear for those curious.

[Allan H.]

34 Air Medals, surely this is a typing error? How on earth could you win that many awards? What type of things is it awarded for?

While the idea of 34 Air Medals does indeed sound like a bunch, there were men who earned more. One example would be Hugh Mills, Air Cav pilot and author of "Low Level Hell" whose military decorations are every bit as impressive as Col. Hackworth's. IIRC, Mills' Air Medal ribbon had the numerals "63" on it when I saw his rack last.

Allan

[Paul R]

34 Air Medals is not unusual at all. I knew several with 70+ and the highest number I recall seeing was 124 awards.

124 Air medals?!?!? What is the story on that man?

[W McSwiggan]

124 Air medals?!?!? What is the story on that man?

I do not know the individual but...

1. Aviators were restricted in the number of hour they could fly in a 30 day period. Because of this, the most Air Medals possible in a single normal (12 month) tour (not including "with V") would be about 60 if exclusively involved in combat operations as was the case with air cavalry, ARA and many other units. This also assumes no R&R. Few actually flew for much in excess of 1000 hours in a tour in my experience making the arithmetic max 40.

2. Aviators were cycled in and out of Vietnam at one of if not the highest rates of all. Practically one year in country followed by a year home then back again.

3. I was an Air Cav Troop cobra pilot and received 34 in about 11 months.

4. Leads me to the easy conclusion that "Mr 124" was a multiple tour (most likely 3 or 4) aviator.

Edited November 22, 2007 by W McSwiggan

[Paul R]

That is amazing for such a high ranking medal.

[mariner]

Cheers Guys, thats really interesting.

I also hadn`t taken into consideration that the regular servicemen might have to do numerous tours over there, in the same way as they do today in Iraq & Afganistan. I wonder what the most time spent over there by a single combat soldier was. Surely it would come to the point where you`ve really pushed you luck !!!

I assume that the casualty rates during the Vietnam war where a steady flow, or did it peak and trough? I`m just wondering if you could land a lucky tour, where not a great deal happened. I assume the chances of returning without seeming any combat were minimal.

Am I also right in thinking that most guys returned with some sort of medal or other?

Mariner

[W McSwiggan]

Casualty rates - combat varied with location and time. Tet '68 & '69 saw major aggressive operations on the part of the VC/NVA as did the April Offensive in '72 not to mention Khe Sahn in I Corps. Beyond that - search and destroy operations designed to maintain initiative were a steady diet for the combat formations of the Marine Corps and Army. Airmobile operations were a significant component of these operations; hence all the Air Medals.

As to medals. All soldiers on active duty were entitled to the National Defense Service Medal during those years and beyond. Time in theater was recognized by the Vietnam Service Medal with campaign stars as appropriate. After 6 months in country, the Government of South Vietnam issued its campaign medal. A wide range of medals was available to recognize soldiers. Heroism (I confine my comments to the Army) - low to high - Army Commendation Medal with "V", Air Medal with "V" (aerial operations only), Bronze Star Medal with "V" (ground operations only), Soldier's Medal (Non-combat heroism), Distinguished Flying Cross (aerial operations only), Silver Star, Distinguished Service Cross and Medal of Honor. As is the case in almost all armies, officers tended to get more "attention" than enlisted ranks even though none of the awards for valor are rank restricted.

Meritorious service awards showed pronounced patterns based on rank. Because award authority was delegated downward (normally to the lowest General Officer Command), policies were subject to variation. Again, rank and award tended to correspond and with some justification considering the level of responsibility that normally goes with increased rank. Often the awards became "semi-automatic" and those receiving higher awards often (but not universally) received the lower awards as well. In my experience, the approximate break out, by rank was: Distinguished Service Medal for Generals, Legion of Merit for Colonels and Lieutenant Colonels, Bronze Stars for Majors to Sergeants and Army Commendation Medals to other ranks.

I should mention that the Bronze Star medal could only be awarded for meritorious service in-country and the Meritorious Service Medal was strictly for service out of theater. The others were allowed in either mode.

Bottom line, an Infantry Sergeant or above who completed a normal tour would most likely wear at least 5 ribbons - Bronze Star, Air Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal and Vietnam Campaign Medal.

Probably created more confusion/controversy that clarity with this but I hope it gives some perspective.

Cheers Guys, thats really interesting.

I also hadn`t taken into consideration that the regular servicemen might have to do numerous tours over there, in the same way as they do today in Iraq & Afganistan. I wonder what the most time spent over there by a single combat soldier was. Surely it would come to the point where you`ve really pushed you luck !!!

I assume that the casualty rates during the Vietnam war where a steady flow, or did it peak and trough? I`m just wondering if you could land a lucky tour, where not a great deal happened. I assume the chances of returning without seeming any combat were minimal.

Am I also right in thinking that most guys returned with some sort of medal or other?

Mariner

[NavyFCO]

Just to add onto the confusion for the Air Medals...even non-aircrew were entitled to them (as is briefly mentioned above). Thus, even your "ground pounder" could receive multiple Air Medals. I have the group of a (non-aircrew or pilot) Navy officer (commander of TF116) who has his Air Medal with "13"... not bad for a surface navy officer!

He also received a Purple Heart due to a crushed vertebre during a helo crash (just to tie it back into the thread!)

Dave

[Paul R]

He also received a Purple Heart due to a crushed vertebre during a helo crash (just to tie it back into the thread!)

Dave

But the crash had to be a direct result of enemy action... right?

[Andy Hopkins]

During Vietnam the First Marine Division had the "three wounds and home" policy...when I was in the Marines I remember talking to my CO about it (he was wounded three times, sent home, went back and was wounded again)...He was an infantry platoon/company commander. Also, I have a friend who was awarded the Purple Heart in Iraq when a piece of equipment rolled onto him and broke his foot and ankle during a fire fight...the award was very contentious in his unit. He was MEDEVACed and given the PH in the hospital, but his CO later had it revoked. When he retired, the Navy gave it back to him....

Edited December 2, 2007 by Andy Hopkins

[bigjarofwasps]

During Vietnam the First Marine Division had the "three wounds and home" policy...when I was in the Marines I remember talking to my CO about it (he was wounded three times, sent home, went back and was wounded again)...He was an infantry platoon/company commander. Also, I have a friend who was awarded the Purple Heart in Iraq when a piece of equipment rolled onto him and broke his foot and ankle during a fire fight...the award was very contentious in his unit. He was MEDEVACed and given the PH in the hospital, but his CO later had it revoked. When he retired, the Navy gave it back to him....

Curious about the Iraq award, how can it be issued revoked and then re issued? I also assume that a `combat injury`, has to be something that the enemy have fired at you? American awards seem to be so fickle with no rule of thumb... I`m currently reading a book (Right Face)where by the author claims to have been awarded the Silver Star promoted to 1st Lt and put in for the DSC all for them same action. Another book I recently read (The Cage) the author claimed to have won the Silver Star & Bronze Star in a week!!!! In the UK you`d be lucky to get one medal at the end of your tour! Goin slightly off topic again, but what the score with CIB & CMB I`ve seen a lot recently with 1 & 2 stars on them, I understand the criteria for there award (I think), but how does the stars work..... I mean do you get one per tour in a combat zone, or like the above medals example could you be awarded a CIB badge on day then a week later get a star and so on? We also only get one campaign medal per tour, in the US you seem to get 2+...example Iraq & war on terror medal. Don`t get me wrong I think its great I wish we could come out of basic training with 2 medals, do a tour and come home with 5!! Thats really `Johnny come lately` stuff!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

Johnny Come Lately

by Steve Earle

I'm an American, boys, and I've come a long way

I was born and bred in the USA

So listen up close, I've get something to say

Boys, I'm buying this round

Well it took a Iittke while but we're in this fight

And we ain't going home 'til we've done what's right

We're gonna drink Camden Town dry tonight

If I have to spend my last pound

When I first got to London it was pourin' down rain

Met a Iittle girl in the field canteen

Painted her name on the nose of my plane

Six more missions I'm gene

Well I asked if I could stay and she said that I might

Then the warden came around yelling "turn out the lights"

Death rainin' out of the London night

We made love 'til dawn

But when Johnny Come Lately comes marching home

With a chest full of medals and a G.l. loan

They'll be waitin' at the station down in San Antone

When Johnny comes marching home

MY P-47 is a pretty good ship

And she took a round coming cross the Channel last trip

I was thinking 'bout my baby and letting her rip

Always got me through so far

Well they can ship me all over this great big world

But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl

I'm taking her home whh me one day, sir

Soon as we win this war

Now my granddaddy sang me this song

Told me about Londen when the Blitz was on

How he married Grandma and brought her back home

A hero throughout his land

Now I'm standing on a runway in San Diego

A couple Purple Hearts and I move a little slow

There's nobody here, maybe nobody knows

About a place called Vietnam

[W McSwiggan]

A bit presumptuous to assume that the multiple awards implies an award system out of control.

At times and in places it was but if you weren?t there then you most likely have no clue.

Compared to the Commonwealth countries ? the US was more liberal in its awards and there was clear potential for inflation. That said ? considering that the average US combat soldier in Vietnam saw significantly more combat in terms of time in contact than the average US combat soldier in WWII, I think it would be best to keep our judgements to ourselves. Not trying to be offensive but the spirit of this forum is to be gentlemanly and we could easily lapse if we maintain this tack.

As to Silver Star and DSC comment ? it was common practice to issue ?impact awards? for events so momentous that they required immediate recognition. The local approving authority could and on occasion did ? make immediate awards such as this. If the higher award was approved at a later date, the impact award was replaced by the higher. Silver Star upgraded to DSC or Medal of Honor was the most common of these uncommon events.

As to stars on the CIB - tour were not the determinant - wars were. My first platoon sergeant wore the CIB with two stars. He was an infantry combat veteran in WWII then Korea then Vietnam. Multiple tours in Vietnam did not entitle one to stars nor did a tour in the Dominican Republic then Vietnam.

As to the more recent conflicts - I will defer to others as I can not testify to the regulations.

Curious about the Iraq award, how can it be issued revoked and then re issued? I also assume that a `combat injury`, has to be something that the enemy have fired at you? American awards seem to be so fickle with no rule of thumb... I`m currently reading a book (Right Face)where by the author claims to have been awarded the Silver Star promoted to 1st Lt and put in for the DSC all for them same action. Another book I recently read (The Cage) the author claimed to have won the Silver Star & Bronze Star in a week!!!! In the UK you`d be lucky to get one medal at the end of your tour! Goin slightly off topic again, but what the score with CIB & CMB I`ve seen a lot recently with 1 & 2 stars on them, I understand the criteria for there award (I think), but how does the stars work..... I mean do you get one per tour in a combat zone, or like the above medals example could you be awarded a CIB badge on day then a week later get a star and so on? We also only get one campaign medal per tour, in the US you seem to get 2+...example Iraq & war on terror medal. Don`t get me wrong I think its great I wish we could come out of basic training with 2 medals, do a tour and come home with 5!! Thats really `Johnny come lately` stuff!!!

[ArmyDoc]

In regards to the CMB, the current conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq is considered in the same time frame as the first gulf war. A star is not added for subsequent tours or for either desert conflicts.

If I remember right, it also includes all conflicts back to vietnam. This is until a date to be determined in the future.

Hope this helps.

[bigjarofwasps]

Oh now that makes more sense...and by that I mean the whole SS DSC thing, yeh I`ll have that. The way it was worded in the book gave the impression that he got two gongs and a promotion all for the same act.

CMB, now I think I`ve got my head round this....so basically if you did a tour of Iraq & a tour of Afgan, because they both come under the war on terror you only get one award. If there was say a further chapter...Iran?? then you`d get a star? Or would that still count as the war on terror. Where as WWII & Korea where clearly two seperate war thus two awards....you lost me a bit with the Vietnam thing, I`m afraid.

Now in the book My War, he author states that the CMB was issued purely for being a medic in a combat zone is this correct? By that I mean is it issued on mass to every medic whose served in Iraq/Afgan, or do you have to have been exposed to a two way range, is there a limit to how much fire there was or weapon type?...example a sing shot from a pistol whilst on patrol, a few mortars in the camp, an IED? Also what happens if your a medic with an infantry squad that gets into a fire fight but now one is injuried, whats happens then?

[ArmyDoc]

Oh now that makes more sense...and by that I mean the whole SS DSC thing, yeh I`ll have that. The way it was worded in the book gave the impression that he got two gongs and a promotion all for the same act.

CMB, now I think I`ve got my head round this....so basically if you did a tour of Iraq & a tour of Afgan, because they both come under the war on terror you only get one award. If there was say a further chapter...Iran?? then you`d get a star? Or would that still count as the war on terror. Where as WWII & Korea where clearly two seperate war thus two awards....you lost me a bit with the Vietnam thing, I`m afraid.

Now in the book My War, he author states that the CMB was issued purely for being a medic in a combat zone is this correct? By that I mean is it issued on mass to every medic whose served in Iraq/Afgan, or do you have to have been exposed to a two way range, is there a limit to how much fire there was or weapon type?...example a sing shot from a pistol whilst on patrol, a few mortars in the camp, an IED? Also what happens if your a medic with an infantry squad that gets into a fire fight but now one is injuried, whats happens then?

First, the reg now states that it is one award currently, no matter how many tours or in what theater. I would assume that Iran would be lumped into that as well. A star would be added for each war--i.e. one for WWII, one for Korea, one for Vietnam, one for Desert Storm, etc. The current time frame goes back to just after Vietnam, I believe.

You do not get one for just being in country. I know many medics who I served with in Iraq and they did not qualify. You do not have to be close contact, but do have to be under fire while rendering aid. That leaves a lot open for interpretation. Does it have to be two way fight or does incoming mortars count? Does one have to be one patrol or can it be awarded for "contact" on base?? Also, you do have to be attached to a combat arms batallion (infantry, armor, etc.). You cannot be a part of a Combat Service Hospital (CSH) and get one. The medic would get a CAB in that case. The CMB was initially meant to mirror the CIB as the medics were sharing the same hardships and deserved to be recognized. I would think that the medic in your example would qualify.

[mariner]

I must say, I`ve made a monster here!!

I was amazed to here that a medic can qualify for a CAB & CMB. But it does make perfect sense I suppose, as I know of loads of medics that were out of the ground, got into scuffle, but didn`t treat anyone. Thus I suppose they would qualify for a CAB. What would happen if they ended up earning both somehow could they wear them both or would they have to choose, I suppose if they somehow won two of one and one of the other they`d wear the one with the star, but what of the other. I asume that would just be on there records or something?

But what do you have to do to qualify for a CAB as a medic? Would the example where one pistol round had been firded at you, by an angry Iraqi as you drove passed on top cover count, or would it have to be a sustained burst of AK, or the like? I assume you have to have infact returned fire?

What about attending a post IED incident, where you treated wounded, but all the `shooting & loud bangs` had finished...But a further return to shooting could in theory happen again at anytime?....CMB, CAB or nothing.

Either way, I must say that this CAB seems to be a good idea, and puts pay to all the other elements of the military that aren`t infantry, but involved in a combat none the less!

[bigjarofwasps]

I must say, I`ve made a monster here!!

I was amazed to here that a medic can qualify for a CAB & CMB. But it does make perfect sense I suppose, as I know of loads of medics that were out of the ground, got into scuffle, but didn`t treat anyone. Thus I suppose they would qualify for a CAB. What would happen if they ended up earning both somehow could they wear them both or would they have to choose, I suppose if they somehow won two of one and one of the other they`d wear the one with the star, but what of the other. I asume that would just be on there records or something?

But what do you have to do to qualify for a CAB as a medic? Would the example where one pistol round had been firded at you, by an angry Iraqi as you drove passed on top cover count, or would it have to be a sustained burst of AK, or the like? I assume you have to have infact returned fire?

What about attending a post IED incident, where you treated wounded, but all the `shooting & loud bangs` had finished...But a further return to shooting could in theory happen again at anytime?....CMB, CAB or nothing.

Either way, I must say that this CAB seems to be a good idea, and puts pay to all the other elements of the military that aren`t infantry, but involved in a combat none the less!

a monster indeed....

Have a look at this...

<a href="http://www.army.mil/symbols/combatbadges/Action.html" target="_blank">http://www.army.mil/symbols/combatbadges/Action.html</a>

It appears you can be awarded all three, but it doesn`t state whether you could wear all three at once?

It also goes on to state..

c. Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.

....but doesn`t stipulate what actively engaged might mean...anyone got any ideas?

[ArmyDoc]

I must say, I`ve made a monster here!!

I was amazed to here that a medic can qualify for a CAB & CMB. But it does make perfect sense I suppose, as I know of loads of medics that were out of the ground, got into scuffle, but didn`t treat anyone. Thus I suppose they would qualify for a CAB. What would happen if they ended up earning both somehow could they wear them both or would they have to choose, I suppose if they somehow won two of one and one of the other they`d wear the one with the star, but what of the other. I asume that would just be on there records or something?

But what do you have to do to qualify for a CAB as a medic? Would the example where one pistol round had been firded at you, by an angry Iraqi as you drove passed on top cover count, or would it have to be a sustained burst of AK, or the like? I assume you have to have infact returned fire?

What about attending a post IED incident, where you treated wounded, but all the `shooting & loud bangs` had finished...But a further return to shooting could in theory happen again at anytime?....CMB, CAB or nothing.

Either way, I must say that this CAB seems to be a good idea, and puts pay to all the other elements of the military that aren`t infantry, but involved in a combat none the less!

Remember, you have to be attached to a specific unit to qualify for the CMB. If you aren't (attached to a CSH for example) and were in that situation-you would get a CAB, not the CMB.

You have to be engaging or be engaged (i.e. bullets coming at you, mortars incoming from the enemy, etc.). So post care would not count.

A medic could only have a CIB and CMB if he were infantry and medical MOS qualified and came under fire. I would assume two separate instances would dictate two awards.

I believe the reg states that you can only wear only one "group one" badge. This would include the CMB, CIB, CAB, EFMB, EIB. So if you have both, you can only wear one. I will double check on this.

[Paul R]

Thanks for the information, Armydoc. Also welcome to the GMIC.

[bigjarofwasps]

Thanks for the information, Armydoc. Also welcome to the GMIC.

Yes I agree, welcome to the forum Armydoc, your a wealth of information, I hope you enjoy visiting the forum as much as we have enjoyed reading your replies!!!!!

[bigjarofwasps]

Remember, you have to be attached to a specific unit to qualify for the CMB. If you aren't (attached to a CSH for example) and were in that situation-you would get a CAB, not the CMB.

You have to be engaging or be engaged (i.e. bullets coming at you, mortars incoming from the enemy, etc.). So post care would not count.

A medic could only have a CIB and CMB if he were infantry and medical MOS qualified and came under fire. I would assume two separate instances would dictate two awards.

I believe the reg states that you can only wear only one "group one" badge. This would include the CMB, CIB, CAB, EFMB, EIB. So if you have both, you can only wear one. I will double check on this.

Roger all that Armydoc, it all becomes clear!!!!

But I wonder if you have any opinion as to what `actively engaged` might mean?

[mariner]

I was reading somewhere a story about the award of one of the Combat Action Badges (can`t remember where, so bear with me...), basically the story went along the lines of a US Military Policeman, did a year tour in Iraq, he was awarded a CAB, for a single incident, during that whole year (nothing else happened during the tour other than this one incident), when his camp was subjected to 20 mortar rounds in a 24 hour period. Urban myth maybe who knows....

[Ulsterman]

Nope-true story. Only the guy was a Sergeant (well, he is now) and in a National Guard unit. I spoke to him 2 months ago at the Maine Boy Scout Jamboree. He is now the local recruiter and lives @ 15 miles from my house.

His one other "action" was to watch the aftermath of a suicide bomber after he'd been shot running towards the guard post at the base.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Ulsterman