Part of the story

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Below is a close-up of a medal bar which I would like to share with you for a number of reasons. What we have on this bar appears to be a Bavarian 1905 army jubilee medal, a Bavarian long (24 year) service cross and a knight of the Japanese Order of the Sacred Treasure. A nice little bar isn?t it? Certainly not worth all that much and it would likely be a welcome addition to many collections even though it doesn?t look like the recipient did very much.

[Wild Card]

I know that Rick, Stogie, Dave and a few others are already ahead of me; but, as the man said, here?s the rest of the story. An example of how a seemingly mundane medal bar often can have some pretty impressive relatives somewhere out there.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Wild Card

[militaria0815]

A good example for the old saying "Appearances are deceiving".

[saschaw]

A good example for the old saying "Appearances are deceiving".

I hope that I can show you something with the same words soon and hope I was right ...

[Guest Rick Research]

PERFECT example of "migrating awards."

[Paul C]

A good example Wild Card. What is NOT on a medal is just as important as what is. Take a look at the bar below.

[Paul C]

With a 25 year LSC and the lack of a RAO or KO you may think the bar belong to a officer who served 25 years and did not do much of anything. But you would be incorrect. If the RAO or KO are not on the bar then they maybe up at the neck. This is the case with this officer. His awards are:

RAO2aE, KO1, DA, 70, HLM66, MG1, REK?1Kr, GSF1, EH1, SEK1Kr

The only awards that will be on the bar are the DA and 1870 campaign. The centennial is a given and since he was Hannover he recieved the Langansalza medal and the Hannover Jubillee medal. the officer who's bar this was is:

[Komtur]

Showed here before, but fitting in this interesting thread: this one is impressive big, but no orders, no enamel, nothing spectacular... All the orders we will find on the neck

The winner was:

Generalleutnant Roderich Felix August von Sch?ler (1862-1935)

02.08.14-30.04.16 Generalintendant des Feldheeres bei der OHL

01.05.16-03.10.16 Kommandeur der 20.Infanteriedivision

03.10.16-12.12.16 stv. preu?ischer Kriegsminister

12.12.16-11.05.17 Kommandeur der 11.Infanteriedivision

11.05.17-11.11.18 Kom. General des VIII.Armeekorps

07.08.19-30.09.20 Kommandeur Gruppenkommando 2 der Reichswehr

Edited December 12, 2007 by Komtur

[saschaw]

Thanks Wild Card for starting this thread and sorry for using is as an intro for showing my newest bar. Any thoughts on it? I hope to get some feedback, thanks.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

Interesting way of remounting the "thanks for coming in and thrashing our uppity rebels" 1849 Medal.

Now... this was an OLD fellow-- action in squashing the Baden revolutionaries then, still in service 1870/71-- and yet he completely MISSED the wars of 1864 and 1866!!!!

I would say what you have there is a VERY old (it's 1895 to have an 1870 battle bar) Hauptmann aD. That far back, Red Eagle 4s were NOT automatic and virtual anniversary awards. Promotions were glacial.

I know of absolutely NO way to research this. All that would ever show on a Prussian Rank List would be the EK and XXV, period. So unless you have a photo of the recipient wearing THIS medal bar, with its UNIQUELY weirdly re-suspended Baden medal... there would be no way to tell if 1 or100 officers had this combination.

[saschaw]

Rick Research said:

Interesting way of remounting the "thanks for coming in and thrashing our uppity rebels" 1849 Medal.

Yes, this is a variation. I have yet some, but these are REALLY hard to get on bars, forget the 1902 medal.

 

 

Well, I thought (and hope) it may be a General's bar impossible a General missed 1864 to 1866 all action ... ?

 

The bar dates 1895 to 1897 as it has yet the "PARIS" bar and the EK ribbon has holes where the oak leaves used to be (by the way, it's an 1914 EK that doesn't belong there!), but no 1897 medal by now. I like the sewing, I like it has no backing, I like the solid brass bar and the remounting on the Baden medal, BUT is this ribbon mounting style known for this period? And how can a Prussian wear the Baden but not the Prussian medal for 1849 ... ? Never seen this as a single on a (Prussian) bar ...

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

Style, yes. I had a noncombatant 1866 and 1870 technical/Beamter "Old Style" ribbon bar in this style, pre-1897.

Ah, but the Prussian 1848/49 Medal was for squashing your uppity bourgeois neighbors only in Hohenzollern. I agree, usually both medals appear as a pair, though I've seen groups with just the Hohenzollern one. (I had an 1870s/80s Godet lapel bow with both 1849s, sigh.)

Perhaps your guy was having so much fun pointing cannons at Baden school girls that he never crossed the state line.

I have no idea how MANY of these there were-- but surely no more than a division of the Prussian army was involved?

Knowing WHICH Prussian units served where at the time might produce a Suspect List if anybody has Rank Lists that far back.

[saschaw]

Okay, I have it now here, yet sold the EK II that doesn't fit. The style is okay, thanks. The ribbons are lovely silk. Are you sure the Prussian medal was awarded only for those who fought in Hohenzollern areas? I couldn't find info on this in HuS and I've never seen a Prussian bar from this time without the Hohenzollern medal, so thought it was given to all fighting, no mater where they fought. Were Prussians fighting in Schleswig-Holstein, too? For nothing but honour?!

 

The Gedächtnismedaille 1849 from Baden was given to all soldiers fighting the revolutionists, most of them Prussian, but as well Hessian, Bavarian and Württemberg troops, some Badeners as well. I think it was many Prussians but I have no idea how many. The reason why we don't see many medal bars from this time is not that the medal were rare but that it wasn't too usual back then to mount them.

 

 

I guess I'd kill for your Godet lapel bow ...

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[Ulsterman]

....wasn't there a small navel contingent in the 1848/9 troubles- and at Paris?

[saschaw]

Rick Research said:

Ah, but the Prussian 1848/49 Medal was for squashing your uppity bourgeois neighbors only in Hohenzollern. I agree, usually both medals appear as a pair, though I've seen groups with just the Hohenzollern one.

Sorry Rick, but that is not right. The "Hohenzollersche Denkmünze" was awarded to all Prussian soldiers who fought in these days, no matter where they were. With this additional info we (actually: a German collector of mainly pre1900 awards) came to: this isn't the bar of a Prussian, at least not of someone who was Prussian before 1866. It's rather likely to be someone from e.g.Kurhessen: they fought in 1849 for nothing, they had no 1864 action, they lost in 1866 with no decoration for it. Possible to you? A Prussian is in our humble opinion absolutely impossible with this combination ...

 

What think the Kurhessen guys?

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

It's a Prussian medal, Sascha. It wasn't given to non-Prussians. Nassau etc was still independent then.

But it IS news to me that ANY combat action against rebels ANYWHERE, as well as just hanging around on guard duty in Brandenburg qualified the ENTIRE Prussian army. I've never seen award requirements that detailed before.

[saschaw]

Live a hundered years, learn a hundered years.

 

 

Rick Research said:

It's a Prussian medal, Sascha. It wasn't given to non-Prussians. Nassau etc was still independent then.

Sure, I never said anything else, at least didn't want to.

 

 

The Prussian medal was given to Prussians, the Baden to guys from anywhere - and from this anywhere my guy had to be from to qualify for the Baden but miss the Hohenzollersche. Most other states had their awards for 1849 and/or 1866, buuut Hessen-Kassel didn't awards commemorial medals for one of those ...

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

Noone with any thoughts on this brilliant theory? I wasn't my idea but I think this does make sense - it apparently cannot be a Prussian's so has to be something elses. In the meantime I bought a nice Iron Cross from 1870 war and a less nice cheap cast fake of worst quality of the oakleaves to it - as a substitute untill I get a nice one for a fair price. I hope you like the bar and pictures - I absolutely do.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

And the reverse before I fixed the EK. As this is with an old ribbon which is sewn and I didn't want to change this it still has its ribbon. One doesn't see it from the front, so it doesn't bother ...

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw

[saschaw]

Here my new bar, the typical combination of a Prussian 1849 veteran who fought in Baden. Actually pretty common, but as it wasn't usual to wears bars back than one doesn't see too many bars but rather single decorations.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by saschaw