Baden Pionier Leutnant tunic

[Naxos]

Well decorated Baden Pionier Leutnant from the Pionier-Bataillon Nr.14

The tunic is in very good condition, exept for some minor moth holes and dust.

I added the awards to show how the tunic might have looked.

Regards, Hardy

Edited December 12, 2007 by Naxos

[dwmosher]

Hardy:

A couple of "time" problems with your tunic: You have a very nice pre-war officer's waffenrock for technical services (most likely pioneer but could be several other units) which was worn up to 1914. The dull muted slip-on Baden pioneer boards are for the feldgrau felduniform, per the 1915 regulations. Prior to that, pioneer boards had just a red base underlay, and I would recommend finding a set of these for a proper display. Others may add on whether this medal combination could be possible on a pre-war uniform, but I know the wound badge was not instituted until early 1918, so I don't think it is a good fit for the loops on the tunic. Again, it is a very nice tunic. Just a thought. The pictures seem to indicate a lighter shade of blue than the dark Prussian blue usually seen. It is possible that your tunic is actually a pre-war waffenrock for the 3rd Baden Dragoon Regt. Prince Karl No. 22. Do you have any other dunkelblau tunics to compare it too?

Regards

Dave

Edited December 13, 2007 by dwmosher

[Naxos]

Thanks Dave for the reply

The tunic is actually darker in life than on the pictures. Here I made some pictures with the flash. I agree with you on the boards being of later issue- I did leave them on the tunic since the velvet on the bottom of the boards seems to be the same fabric as the collar and cuffs.

Any ideas for the award beside the EKI?

I have seen pictures of the blue pre-war tunic worn with wound badge

Edited December 13, 2007 by Naxos

[Paul R]

That is a spectacular uniform, Hardy!! The medal bar brings the whole thing to life!

For badges, I would thing a combat and wound badge? I would not think that an EK1 would be positioned in that manner.

[ccj]

That is a spectacular uniform, Hardy!! The medal bar brings the whole thing to life!

For badges, I would thing a combat and wound badge? I would not think that an EK1 would be positioned in that manner.

I would suggest only the medal bar and EKI. If you have an EKI equivalent then it would look good side by side. The wound badge is okay but I really think something higher ranking would look best with this loop configuration. With all the variations seen in period photos you can pretty much do whatever makes you happy.

[Chip]

Any tailor's label inside the breast pocket?

Chip

[Naxos]

Any tailor's label inside the breast pocket?

Chip

Hi Chip,

no, no label inside. The tunic has three pockets inside: two in the back and a breast pocket.

Chip do you see any problem with the later style shoulder boards found on this tunic?

Any suggestions what the award could have been beside the EKI?

Hardy

[Guest Rick Research]

Undoubtedly a pre-war tunic worn after the war with wartime awards.

If the guy was only a Leutnant, then he must have bought the blue tunic in anticipation of being commissioned as an officer while an officer candidate when the war started. Anybody else would have been bumped out as a char. Oberleutnant after the war if commisioned in peacetime.

[Chip]

Naxos,

I agree with what Rick mioght be inferring....that this quite possibly might be a higher ranked officer's tunic. Regardless, you would never see this pattern of board (M15 for the Bluse) on a Dunkelblau tunic...well, at least not during the war.

The insignia for this pattern board would have been subdued to match the gray subdued cords, but this pairing would happen occasionally. Dave got it right. What you need is a pair of the earlier pattern with a red underlay. The red/black came out in 1915. Even if this tunic continued to be worn for dress occasions until 1915, it would have had the old pattern or perhaps the new pattern with bright silver colored cords.

Regarding the breast award possibilities, I will defer to the medal experts.

Chip

[ccj]

This set-up will look great if you find a nice pair of captain or major engineers boards for display with an EKI and a states EK equivalent. The loops could hold a three place up to a 5 place order bar and it would look super to have a display showing an early war decorated pioneer officer dress in formal or evening wear.

There are many photos of officers wearing prewar colored tunics and uberrocks with WW1 decorations. If you ever tire of it I'd like to have it.

[Naxos]

Gentlemen, I need your input

I was going to change the boards on this tunic like you all suggested, but when I had a closer look at the boards I noticed the following:

1.) The numerals are not all the way through the boards, they were put on before the red and black piping was attached what leads me to believe that the numerals are original to the boards.

2.) The Laschen holding the boards on the tunic are of the same blue wool as the tunic.

3.) The black velvet of the boards is the same as the black velvet on the collar and cuffs.

4.) No rank pips seemed to be removed.

5.) There is no indication the tunic had different boards on (in fact if you have a close look you can see a slight fading on the shoulder outlining the shoulder board Lasche.

I think I should leave this tunic in the present state, since all indications, however improbable, suggest that the boards and the rank are original to this tunic.

There are a lot of portraits taken after 1918 depicting officers and NCO's in the pre war blue tunic.

Rick, Chip and Charles what are your suggestions?

Please, I need some help - if the boards would have shown any indication being messed with or from a different tunic it would have been changed already, but...

Regards, Hardy

Edited January 24, 2008 by Naxos

[Chip]

Hardy,

Well, I certainly would not jettison these boards until you got something to replace them. Regarding your observations,

The gilt numbers appear to be original to the boards. Not regulation, but not uncommonly done either.

The color of the Laschen on the boards usually means nothing and was not an indication of the color of the tunic.

Of course, the black velvet would be the same, as both the tunic and the boards are pioneer officer pieces.

Regards,

Chip

[Thomas]

In my humble opinion, those boards would never have been worn with that uniform. They might even be from the same family, and could have been put on by someone, but not the original owner of the uniform. The man himself would never have worn incorect 1915 subdued baords on his dress uniform.