Hungary Order of Labour-Silver Class

[Guest Rick Research]

You guys are a very bad influence. Now look what you've got me started doing.

Are these actually silver, or just strongly silver plated? Quite an anthracite coal/oil slick patina effect which I associate with real untouched silver. Separate hammer and torch at bottom. The white appears to be enamel rather than paint to me-- looks ickier enlarged than life size, but it has the sort of "cooking bubbles" I see in Communist white enamel from a lot of countries.

And how could I resist that ribbon bar device?

Since the earlier "1 class' model was gold colored, if THAT was held, and then THIS was awarded as a second award... would a THIRD one have been the new M1964 type in gold (again)? Trying to figure out what real groups would look like.

Also (you guys have created a monster, but you have nobody to blame but yourselves! ), I'm lost as to where eaxctly these FIT in the hierarchy of awards. With so many constant, ongoing, overlapping CHANGES in designs and new awards replacing OLD awards...

could you make any equivalence with these to anything in the Soviet system of awards? I gather there were enough awards senior to these that these would not be equivalent to a Soviet Order of the Red Banner of Labour-- but would they be more "approximate" to the 3 grades of Soviet Order of Labor Glory?

[Gordon Craig]

Rick,

I made a post to this thread yesterday but it seems either not have been attached or disappeared into the big cloud known as "The Internet". What I said yesterday was that my understanding is that they were awarded in order. Bronze, Silver and Gold. I don't have anything to substantiate this other than medal bars I have seen as well as pictures of guys in Munkasor uniforms wearing these medals. In order of precedence the Bronze is #30, the Silver is #27 and the Gold is #20. I have never seen the same grade worn twice on a ribbon bar.

As for the tarnish on your medal that is something I have not seen before. The ones I have seen are all of the "stay brite" type. I don't know of any "non-destructive" ways of confirming if the medal is silver or how much of it is silver. In the history of medals in communist countries, and you are as aware of this as I am, early medals (1950s) were often made of precious metals. As the countries economy began to suffer less and less money was spent on medals and the use of precious medals came to an end. Using this as a guideline, if the Order of Labour was made of silver, or even heavily silver plated, in their early versions I would expect we would see this in the 16 Ray versions and the early 34 ray versions. Charles has a silver 16 Ray Order of Labour and perhaps he can comment on your possible real silver one.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Ulsterman]

It's very nice-the patina is awesome-early type?

-Next time I'll go with you-perhaps even Stogierick will appear, enticed by illegal south American tidbits within the hampers?

[Guest Rick Research]

Like the ribbon bar device, even the little rings up under the ribbon appear to be silver(-plated?), all with the same unpolished-forever look.

German-silver alloys don't tend to produce this sort of dark patina. There is not the slightest sign of wear through this surface anywhere.

Close up, the white looks really icky, speckled with impurity flecks similar to what I have seen of white hot enamel-- apparently a color that caused problems in many Communist enamel recipes.

The surface-- despite its "science lab slide" look up close , is absolutely flat and perfect--no chips, no flakes. These sure look like heating byproducts to me--not found with cold enamel-paint.

If only these were serial numbered like Soviet awards!

[Guest Rick Research]

Front and back, untouched patina

[Guest Rick Research]

What LOOKS like a "blob" in the scan is actually like a narrow scar line:

Close ups around 2 of the rivets. The rim is anthracite coal colored patina, while the rivetted on backing plate is rough finished--looks like "sawn wood" with the tarnish pattern, but the metal is actually "sandy" looking up close:

[Gordon Craig]

Rick,

Great photos. To continue our little investigation would you weigh the award and let me know what it weighs. I'll weigh the ones I have and see what comes of it. The "flecked" enamel is a sign of early hot enamel. Charles was just talking about that today on an early police medal he had bought recently.

You aren't the only one being led astray! I bought two Jugoslav awards today that I have been looking at for weeks. Finally succumed to the urge to buy them. Never bought any while I lived in Belgrade and now I start buying them?

Regards,

Gordon

[Ed_Haynes]

As an offender re. thread discipline: Should we add (re-add) other 'silver's here and set up a 'gold' thread?

[Ulsterman]

I vote yes-at it'll make research easier in a few years.

[Guest Rick Research]

I haven't got anything "scientific" to weigh WITH.

So, we got enough Silvers to go for a dedicated thread? Should we divide up by "3 piece reverse," and "flat reverse?"

[Ed_Haynes]

Gold-Silver-Bronze split or something more vague??

As 'Ulsterman' has implied in another thread, maybe a JOMSA article. Break your track record, Rick!

[Gordon Craig]

Rick,

I would suggest the gold, silver, bronze route that Ed posted. That way we get all of the possible issues on one thread regardless of construction, number of rays. Much easier for research for forum members that way.

If you are interested in getting something to weigh ODMs, that is fairly accurate and inexpensive, I have two machines. Both are digital and allow you to select weight by ounces or grams. One is a postal meter that I bought in Canada. At Staples I think. The other is a kitchen scale that I bought here in Budapest. I bought the second one because I foolishly put my postal meter in storeage. They both were in the $25.00 range.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

Gents,

I said earlier in this thread that Charles had bought the silver 16 rayed silver Order of Labour and I had bought the bronze. I was in error. Seems Charles bought the gold and I bought the silver. I weighed my silver award, with the ribbon attached, and it is 20 grams. The enamel is not like the one Rick posted on his silver with the patina but very smooth. You will see some marks in the photo but they are scratches. Because of the quality I would say that it is hot enamel. The medal is made in three parts with the star riveted to the central piece. I am not sure how the oak leaves are attached to the enamelled part. Now for the pictures.

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

A close up of the enamel.

[Gordon Craig]

A view of the back.

[Guest Rick Research]

What DOES hold those on? There is no sign of visible solder, or of glue.

So the one you've just posted is the 1950 type,

Looking at these, and the examples in the Bronze class thread,

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18632

it appears that the

1) Miraculously Invisibly Attached separate ray back center with riveted star type preceded the

2) Three Rivets separate ray back center with rivetted star type, which preceded the

3) Flat Back one piece with rivetted star finally superceded by the

4) M1985 Dished Back with rivetted star.

Maybe need some better and consistent names for these?

As sub-types within some of the above 1-4 we could catalog real hot enamel versus cold enamel-paint?

Are the STARS always enamel, regardless of the backing white? And in the bronze thread, I noticed that what appear to be all of the M1985s, the star has a sharply defined center "nipple" with prominent raised dots down the center of each star arm-- while "all" (and I'm guessing here waiting to see more examples of all types and classes) the earlier stars are real enamel but with random "strawberry seed" pattern dots.

My silver(-plated?) M1964 3 rivet Order starting this thread seems an anomaly because of the metal finish and background being real enamel rather than paint.

Bottom line is, we seem to have more varieties than The Book shows!!!

[Gordon Craig]

Rick,

There are a good many more types than what is listed in the NMK. We probably should define the different construction varieties within each of year of introduction. From there we could label them cold enamel or hot enamel sub varieties, if that applies or is really necessary. We would need to do enough pictures, and a very good description, to ensure collectors could tell a cold enamel sub variety from a hot enamel one. We would also have to leave some elasticity in the method of classification to allow for new types to be catelogued such as your silver plated variety. If this keeps up, I'll have to carry a laptop to keep track of what I need to add to my collection!

Regards,

Gordon

[Guest Rick Research]

Just as long as we have "ours" before the "Soviet variations" prices hit!

OK people, let's see some more. And there's a need for a Gold class thread to start up!

[hunyadi]

Very nice mid 60's three piece silver Order of Labor. Saw one the other day with a 'frosted' back. As for awarding them. They were not awarded in order. The 'king tut's tomb' lot that I have, the woman recived the bronze grade in the 1970's after 20 years of working for the propoganda department. Then in the 1980's she was awarded the gold grade. This was pretty common as many workers who 'built up' the HUPR after 1956 were retiring in 1986. The state made huge sums of bestowals of the gold grade (as well as the silver and bronze) Regardelss - the determination of who got one and what grade was determined abstractly by "management" (council of ministers)

[Ulsterman]

Here's the front of my silver-not as nice as Ricks:

[Guest Rick Research]

The reverse of the center on mine was probably frosted, but being looooooong out of its case is what must account for the patina. I was just glad to get the matching mini with the same silver, too.

[Ulsterman]

Here's the doc. for the silver: