Ribbon bar w/ Russian St. Anne or ?

[landsknechte]

I posted this one previously, but apparently it's amongst the postings that vanished into some sort of forum netherworld.

Oh well...

Anyhow, I had discovered a very hard to see hole in the ribbon on the right. Previously, that ribbon had been assumed to be a Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion. If that hole is indeed from a device, per Rick, it can't be a BrH. There had been a bit of discussion as to what that ribbon might have been which, of course, vanished before I had a chance to copy anything down. Could those of you who ventured theories previously, be so kind as to venture them again?

Thanks,

--Chris

Edited September 24, 2005 by landsknechte

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I would say yes but I am not sure what other matches might exist.

[Wild Card]

Hi landsknechte

I am really glad that you brought this little guy back out for discussion because I had some fun thoughts about it after it got lost which I will get to in a moment. You may recall that I had a problem with the assumption that the last ribbon was to the Brunswick House Order of Henry the Lion; and in that vein, suggested that it might go to the Lippe-Detmold military merit medal or (still my choice) the Imperial Russian St. Anna Order.

Now to the fun thoughts. In solving this riddle, we seem to have overlooked the first ribbon. Sure, it?s Hohenzollern; but is it Prussian/Royal or Princely/House? Either way, especially without swords (no evidence of a sword device on this ribbon) the possibilities cover a wide range - from, approximately, a knight of the Royal order to a member?s eagle of the Princely order.

Getting back to the ?Brunswick? ribbon assumption, the first and second class Henry the Lion knights with swords were originally put forth; but the merit crosses, again first and second class with swords, were not mentioned as possibilities. Now let?s go to the extreme, as far as I can see it.

What we have here is a ribbon bar representing a Princely Hohenzollern member?s eagle, a centenary medal and (are you ready?) a medal for arts and science to the Henry the Lion Order; being of the first section of the of the second class - hence signified by a crown device, not the assumed swords, on the ribbon!! Okay, very very unlikely; but not impossible.

In the end, we will never know the truth regarding this bar; but I appreciate the opportunity that it has presented in pointing out the fact that the answers in such identifications can lie in very obscure and often overlooked places. Thank you.

Yours truly,

Wild Card

[landsknechte]

Getting back to the ?Brunswick? ribbon assumption, the first and second class Henry the Lion knights with swords were originally put forth; but the merit crosses, again first and second class with swords, were not mentioned as possibilities. Now let?s go to the extreme, as far as I can see it.

FWIW, the records are such that Rick Research has been able to rule out the Henry the Lion with swords positively.

--Chris

[Stogieman]

Interesting discussion and insight on the last ribbon. As well as entirely possible!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Rick, is there an attachment for the St. Anne??? I still see that ribbon in my mind.

[landsknechte]

If it can be generalized at all, who typically received St. Anne's?

--Chris

[Pete A]

St. Anne could have been awarded with swords or with imperial crown (+swords). If this is a St. Anne that was awarded with swords, it might be possible that the recipient has unofficially added them to his bar, to denote this fact. The Russians didn't use ribbon bars and so there was no real devices available. The imperial crown seems unlikely, since it was an additional award for the two highest classes only, and usually awarded only to Russians. Foreigners received diamonds as an additional award for their 1st & 2nd classes.

Pete

[landsknechte]

St. Anne could have been awarded with swords or with imperial crown (+swords). If this is a St. Anne that was awarded with swords, it might be possible that the recipient has unofficially added them to his bar, to denote this fact. The Russians didn't use ribbon bars and so there was no real devices available. The imperial crown seems unlikely, since it was an additional award for the two highest classes only, and usually awarded only to Russians. Foreigners received diamonds as an additional award for their 1st & 2nd classes.

Pete

There were certainly enough examples of Germans adding swords to foreign decorations that didn't officially bear them in their home countries. Seems plausable enough.

--Chris

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I'm not sure of the circumstances under which a German would have earned swords for this Russian decoration. In the war with Japan Germans were observers. Perhaps a crown device.

[Pete A]

I'm not sure of the circumstances under which a German would have earned swords for this Russian decoration. In the war with Japan Germans were observers. Perhaps a crown device.

True, it is very hard to think of a "military matter" where a German would have earned the swords. Perhaps a observing-situation, like you said. But I still think that the crown device can be ruled out, since it was for the Russian subjects only, and besides, it was discontinued in 1874. If this is a Russian St. Anne, I think the 3rd class would be the only option.

Pete

[landsknechte]

True, it is very hard to think of a "military matter" where a German would have earned the swords. Perhaps a observing-situation, like you said. But I still think that the crown device can be ruled out, since it was for the Russian subjects only, and besides, it was discontinued in 1874. If this is a Russian St. Anne, I think the 3rd class would be the only option.

Pete

Could it have been a Russian Civil War era award?

--Chris

[Pete A]

Could it have been a Russian Civil War era award?

--Chris

Well, anything is possible. The white commanders awarded old imperial orders, even the prestigeous St. George, quite loosely. But the again, the other two awards being a 1897 centenary and that weird Hohenzollern, a 1918-1920 russian award would seem quite odd?

Pete

[landsknechte]

In all honesty, I'm not nearly familiar enough with the Russian Civil War to know just how odd it might have been.

[saschaw]

In the end, we will never know the truth regarding this bar.

No no no, you are NOT right, IMO.

I don't thin there has been a device on the last ribbon, it seems to be just a little damage. This ribbon bar matches exactly to one of my medal bars, and at least this contains:

- Hohenzollern, Silberne Verdienstmedaille;

- Preu?en, Kreuz f?r Kriegshilfe;

- Baden, Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung;

- Preu?en, Centenarmedaille.

Even if the last ribbon is not exactly the same - as we all know, there might be little discrepancies with mini ribbons

(I also got a Baden WWI bar with a bavarian medal, and on the matching ribbon bar the ribbon of ottoman liakat is used)

BTW:

I think my medal bar is a Baden soldiers one, probably a 114er who served as Schlosswache on Burg Hohenzollern, as some of this regiment did. Belonging to the bar, there was a IX year long service bar of Baden, pre 1913 model.

PPS: If the ribbon bar could be sold ....

[Jacky]

Very nice thread, my dear Gents....

If I may opt another option??

The russians also awarded medals of Zeal with the ribbon of the order of st Anne, so...

It could be that too!!!

I thought the ribbon of St Anne was used for medals of Zeal to NCO's .....

Could be also failing memories

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Deruelle]

hi,

Interresting thread. . Thanks for sharing

Christophe