Heer Administration Officers Tunic

[Wessel]

This is a tunic I got recently in an auction. I had been looking for a tunic with such collar patches but I'm not exactly sure which branch of the service this is.

The shoulder boards suggest a Hauptman and the collar tabs an Oberintendent, and the secondary colour is grey...but there is no grey (according to Davis book). So either dirty white or faded light blue. I think it is the latter which would make it a Military Law officials. This sounds much better than a Paymaster!

Anyone any thoughts?

[Wessel]

...collar patches.

[Wessel]

...shoulder boards.

[Guest Rick Research]

Definitely GRAY. That rings distant bells... something along the lines of wartime "war's duration" duties? or military uniformed, but administration of occupied territories?

SOMEWHERE a zillion years ago there was a thread about a "general" (I think he was the Nazi mayor of someplace in Germany) wearing administrative general's UNIFORM, but he was such an exotic wartime creature, neither fish nor fowl. DRESSED like the army, but not actually considered army.

Anybody else getting the same distant memory bells ringing?

I don't suppose there is a name label in the pocket?

[Paul R]

I think that Larry Strong is well versed in the the Heer Admin side of the house. I think that he said that at some point, Nebenfarbe were all made grey, for a specific period of time. Regardless, a very very nice and rare tunic. I have found several WL and WH Admin tunics go for very inexpensive prices on ebay the past few months!

[Wessel]

Thanks, guys.

No name but maker is a Fulda tailor, Wilhelm Kierma.

The ribbon bar came with the tunic and of course could have come from anywhere, but it seems as if it has been there a long time, judging by the mark on the tunic. It has the 1914-1918 Cross of Honour with Swords, the 25 Year Faithfull Service Cross and (I think) the Social welfare Medal, all suggesting an older Officer with a Civil background.

[Laurence Strong]

Thanks for the compliment Paul Rick is bang on the money Sweet tunic by the way

I am trying to learn. I owe a big thanks to Diane Schreiber for this. It's kind of funny as I asked her yesterday about this very subject.

The regulations ( I am trying to get my hands on some copies of these)are a little cloudy but the Grey Nebenfarbe was for "Beamter auf Kriegsdauer" (Officials for the Duration of the War). Military Administration (Occupation) Officials used grey Nebenfarbe with a Wehrmacht eagle rather than the "HV" cipher. To the best of my knowledge the HV devices, should have been changed to silver/grey

Edited February 22, 2008 by Laurence Strong

[Paul R]

Is that a Hermann Goring Division Tunic I see in the background?

[Wessel]

I have a Sonderfuhrer tunic, 'War Duration', which has a distinctly blue-grey colour quite different from this other one.

[Paul R]

The regulations ( I am trying to get my hands on some copies of these)are a little cloudy but the Grey Nebenfarbe was for "Beamter auf Kriegsdauer" (Officials for the Duration of the War). Military Administration (Occupation) Officials used grey Nebenfarbe with a Wehrmacht eagle rather than the "HV" cipher. To the best of my knowledge the HV devices, should have been changed to silver/grey

Yes, but this one clearly has the HV ciphers. War Officials for the War Duration were sonderfuhrers... right?

Holy smokes!!! That Sonderfuhrer tunic is really something!! What does the red line in the center of the Litzen represent?

[Wessel]

Hi Paul, Yes and in the French cuffs was a pair of well-folded sand gogles! Original to the tunic? I like to think so! I'll post a photo tonight.

[Laurence Strong]

This is going to be quick as I have to go to the city and fix my daughters gate in the back yard, seeings how a bunch of creeps went thru last night and scared the life out of her and the girls.

"Beamter auf Kriegsdauer" were regular officials that went by the 4 levels of career's. Most officials ranked equivalent to officers; there were some with equivalent Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (Senior NCO) ranks.

Sonderfuhrer's were NCOs and men with special linguistic or technical skills, but lacking in necessary military training for higher rank, they were permitted to be promoted to NCO or officer supervisory status as Specialist Officers. They wore standard military uniforms, and did have officer's rank - without an actual commission - and authority - but only within the area covered by their occupation.

The collar patch for all ranks was done in matt aluminum, on a grey-blue backing. Can I get a closeup of the tabs They appear to be correct. I wonder if they used a nebenfarbe color. Those would be the first Sonderfuhrer tabs I have seen. Another sweet tunic. The shoulder boards are for the rank of Zugfuhrer.

Well I got to put my carpenters hat on .

Hope this helped a bit.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Laurence Strong

[Wessel]

Thanks for all that info...close up of the collar and shoulder tabs attached. The shoulder boards seem to be Leutnant rank (per Davis book) and the collar definitely has a red litzen in them.

Re the Hermann Goring tunic I will post that in the Luft section to be consistent.

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks for confirming my "random access memory" Laurence!

[nesredep]

Hello!

Nice officers tunic.Thanks for sharing.

All the best

Nesredep

[Laurence Strong]

Thanks for all that info...close up of the collar and shoulder tabs attached. The shoulder boards seem to be Leutnant rank (per Davis book) and the collar definitely has a red litzen in them.

Re the Hermann Goring tunic I will post that in the Luft section to be consistent.

I am not saying that they are wrong, as at this time i don't have a positive answer - I have this on the way from europe "Die deutsche Wehrmacht Uniformen - Ausr?stung - HEER" gonna be interesting trying to read German.

However they look suspiciously like 1st pattern RAD c1936 tabs for a Truppfuhrer!

[Wessel]

You're right; the measurements are the same as in Bender's book on the RAD although he talks about WHITE tabs with GREY bar in the centre (p.316).

My tabs are aluminium with red stripe.

Could the red be a particular Branch of the RAD?

This is odd!!! The tabs seem original, and well attached, as are the shoulder boards and the eagle - it is usually the latter that is missing and has to be reattached, not the collar tabs. These DO look similar to Sonderfuhrer so maybe it was a tunic without tabs and someone put on what was the nearest thing??

If you learn any more then please let me know.

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Wessel

What I believe you have - if the backing on those tabs is black - is a set of 1st pattern RAD bandsmen tabs, these are a rarity in their own.

According to this manual, Chapter IX Sec II:

<a href="http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/index.html</a>

It states that collar tabs for all ranks was done in matt aluminum, on a grey-blue backing.

Here is alink to the one Sonderfuhrer collar tabs I was able to find. Bit of a crappy photo and I will post better when it gets here.

Here are a bunch of different RAD tabs:

<a href="http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/08RAD1.html" target="_blank">http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Political/08RAD1.html</a>

1931 when the voluntary Freiwilliger Arbeitsdienst (FAD) was founded they used a red stripe on thier tabs, When Hitler came to power it was renamed Nationalsozialist-Arbeitsdienst (NSAD) and in 1934 it was renamed RAD, and the red strip was carried over to the RAD. When the tabs changed in 36-37 the red was eliminated for all by Bandleaders.

How this occured is beyond me. I am going to say it's was a regular Sonderfuhrer tunic, The dark green collar of the field blouse was in theory subsituted by a collar of blue-grey, which appears to be the case here. Trying to find info on the Sonderfuhrer tabs has been like pulling "hens teeth" there is really not much out there........And thats why I think those are on the tunic....lack of proper info available

Sorry about being the bearer of bad news.

Hope this helps some.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Laurence Strong

[Wessel]

Hi Laurence... The tabs definitely seem to be RAD, but the tunic is not the usual brown colour so even if the collar had been replaced the rest of the jacket does not fit with that theory.

It also has a dagger strap inside, which a RAD man's tunic would not have.

The maker is C. Louis Weber of Hannover, whose name I have seen on Army caps.

I just cannot expain it!!!!

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Wessel

I am saying the tunic would be correct for a Sonderfuhrer not the RAD. As you have pointed out it should be brown in that case.

[Wessel]

Hi Laurence...try www.auction.militaria.de/browse.pp?id=31 for an Admin tunic with the type of tabs we are trying to track down!

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Wessel

Link won't work for me.

[nesredep]

Hi Wessel

Link won't work for me.

Hello!

Wont work for me to.

All the best

Nesredep

[Wessel]

Just try the main page...it has just worked for me 2 minutes ago, then go into the Uniforms section and scroll around.

www.auction.militaria.de

[Ulsterman]

Definitely GRAY. That rings distant bells... something along the lines of wartime "war's duration" duties? or military uniformed, but administration of occupied territories?

SOMEWHERE a zillion years ago there was a thread about a "general" (I think he was the Nazi mayor of someplace in Germany) wearing administrative general's UNIFORM, but he was such an exotic wartime creature, neither fish nor fowl. DRESSED like the army, but not actually considered army.

Anybody else getting the same distant memory bells ringing?

I don't suppose there is a name label in the pocket?

Yes I do-wasn't he wearing a Mayor's chain of office?

I actually have a photo of a chap uniformed very similar to this example (if not the same), but harkening back to my nomenclature rant earlier (snotty , I admit, but I'm a firm believer in social tone) , I prefer not to converse with people who have screen monikers of Nazi party martyrs.

Why not a screen name of "Heydrich" or "Goebbels" ?