Soviet new foto

[Sergey]

I think, that is interesting. It is possible in thirty years

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Sergey,

I guess, that will be never possible , because the "Victory" - and some other awards - can be only confered to participants of the GPW .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: The Russian Federation still awards GPW-veterans with authentic CCCP-awards .

[Guest Rick Research]

I remember the Original Model when WE had... Jimmy Carter

[Ed_Haynes]

No . . . you need to plop his head on the body of Nicky II -- then you'd have it -- get in the right era

[Christian Zulus]

I remember the Original Model when WE had... Jimmy Carter

Dear Rick,

I guess, that Submarine-Lieutenant & Korean-War-Veteran James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr. hadn't been that "bad guy".

At least he got the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 and never bombed - by violating all international laws - a country in Europe .

Best regards

Christian

[Sergey]

Dear Sergey,

I guess, that will be never possible , because the "Victory" - and some other awards - can be only confered to participants of the GPW .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: The Russian Federation still awards GPW-veterans with authentic CCCP-awards .

Dear Christian,

in Russia all is possible.Brezhnev during war was the colonel. It was political commisar.Look the status of award of the Victory. Then tell as it became the gentleman of this award.In Russia there is a good proverb. It speaks-law it a cart (carriage) where will turn and it will turn out

(Закон что дышло,куда повернул так и вышло).

For such a case it is possible to think up that that .For example the president-first minister, and then the first minister-president.

And you speak it not probably

[Sergey]

No . . . you need to plop his head on the body of Nicky II -- then you'd have it -- get in the right era

Time will tell, that is correct. Nikolay's model or Dear, Favourite, Lionid Ilyich. I have no that against time of Ilyich number two (Ilich numer one -Lenin) I was the young guy. Girls did not refuse in my requests. I have passed thirty years do not ask girls about what. However I recollect this time with love.One has only dark color-Afghanistan.

[Wild Card]

Dear Rick,

At least he got the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 and never bombed - by violating all international laws - a country in Europe .

Best regards

Christian

Unlike Franklin D. Roosevelt.

[Christian Zulus]

Unlike Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Dear Wild Card,

o.k., you are right ... , at least Roosevelt's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt bombing of Nazi-Germany hadn't been a violation of international laws, despite the well proven historic and economic fact (i.e.: study of economist Galbraith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kenneth_Galbraith ), that the bombing had far less effect on the Nazi's war-economy, than expected, but much more effect on the population, housings and the civil infrastructure. AND you can not compare the US-bombing of Nazi-Germany with the British bombing by Churchill and "Bomber Harris" (aka: "Butcher Harris") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Travers_Harris .

Maybe the most positive aspect of the Roosevelt-Adminstration, concerning foreign policy, had been the peaceful cooperation at all fields with the CCCP and the establishing of the UNO - both issues were destructed by Churchill & Truman .

Best regards

Christian

[Kev in Deva]

Is this thread going to descend into a "tit for tat" political discussion?

The German fascist Air force bombed innocent civilians in Gurnica, Spain,

with the experience gained there they went on to hit Polish, Dutch, Belgian, French and British targets

like Coventry and other well known British cities. Also they targeted many Russian cities.

The German population reaped what they sowed under their leadership, and despite what is posted on "Postanythingyoulikeikipedia" German Military War production did suffer and this was reflected in the falling supplies of war material.

"Bomber" Harris did the job he was trained to do, he took the fight to the enemy nation, he targeted the infrastructure, which was in civilian areas, (you wont hear anybody who had to live under the Blitz condition in London or other British cities condemn him,) and there was no such thing as precision bombing, only carpet bombing.

Kevin in Deva.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Kevin,

No, the only person, who goes into a "tit for tat" political discussion is the person, who entered the discussion about the quality of US-Presidents (and the possibility for Prime Minister Putin obtaining Soviet GPW-awards) recently ...

Listen, I stated, that the USA had a different strategy & concept of bombing Nazi-Germany, than the UK - that's an evident historic fact and about that, any discussion is senseless.

I stated, that the Roosevelt-Administration had a different strategy & concept for the UNO and towards the future collaboration with the Soviet Union, than the Truman-Adminstration - that's also an evident historic fact and about that, any discussion is again senseless.

I stated, that the renowed US-economist & Harvard-Professor (and ex-member of the Roosevelt-Administration!) John Kenneth Gailbraith published a study about the impact of the Allied bomb raids on the war-economy in Nazi-Germany. You should read that study.

If you think, that Hamburg, Dresden etc. etc. was soooo neccessary for winning the war against Nazi-Germany, than that's your private opinion and I invite you, to discuss your point of view with the old generation of people living in Hamburg, Dresden etc. etc.

Listen, I am not paid by the Austrian Armed Forces for "tit for tat" political pamphlets, but for serious work within the general staff of our army as an expert for history.

A "tit for tat"-argumentation line would be: Gurnica - Coventry - Dresden - Hiroshima, but that's not up to the standard of the science of history. Historians know neither "good", nor "bad", they have to analyze the causes, reasons and strategies behind the historic incidents and to present hard facts or at least valid theories. I guess, that "Bomber" Harris wouldn't have lost his knighthood & pension, if he would have opposed against these insane opertions against Hamburg or Dresden ...

War is inhuman and it should be the main aim of all armed forces around the globe to prevent war and to establish peace, as the (neutral) Irish and Austrian Armed Forces practise successfully for decades within the UN-Forces .

Dear Kevin, don't be soooooo offensive against my postings - I am neither a communist, nor a maniac, just a Catholic in uniform serving in the army of a neutral country .

Best regards

Christian

Is this thread going to descend into a "tit for tat" political discussion?

The German fascist Air force bombed innocent civilians in Gurnica, Spain,

with the experience gained there they went on to hit Polish, Dutch, Belgian, French and British targets

like Coventry and other well known British cities. Also they targeted many Russian cities.

The German population reaped what they sowed under their leadership, and despite what is posted on "Postanythingyoulikeikipedia" German Military War production did suffer and this was reflected in the falling supplies of war material.

"Bomber" Harris did the job he was trained to do, he took the fight to the enemy nation, he targeted the infrastructure, which was in civilian areas, (you wont hear anybody who had to live under the Blitz condition in London or other British cities condemn him,) and there was no such thing as precision bombing, only carpet bombing.

Kevin in Deva.

[Kev in Deva]

I guess, that "Bomber" Harris wouldn't have lost his knighthood & pension, if he would have opposed against these insane opertions against Hamburg or Dresden ...

You are right, you are guessing, I believe he got his knighthood and pension and awards as befitting for for doing what he believed was right in WW2 along with his service pre-WW2. As to the opinions of the Hamburger's and Dresdener's, well, the losers in a conflict, especially one that they started, and supported, will always be sour, while they were on the winning streak and during the "Happy Time", I bet they did a lot of Swastika Flag waving and "Sieg Heiling", but, when the shoe is on the other foot they cry "no fair".

With regards, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were perfectly acceptable targets of high war production, belonging to a race of people who were busy killing, torturing and murdering, their way a cross Asia, with no consideration for anybody but themselves, and even today they still manage to avoid admitting they were guilty.

Personally I do not see what your particular Religious Persuasion, has to do with your pamphlet writing job, unless, only Catholics are allowed to serve in the Austrian Armed Forces?? But there again there are many in Austria who have difficulty reconciling what was done in Austria, and by Austrians in the service of the Nazis, post Anschluss and in WW2.

Out of sight is out of mind for some eh?

Kevin in Deva.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Kevin,

I had been speaking about Harris' knighthood (=KBE) and not about his baronetcy of a 1st Baronet of Chipping Wycombe, which he actually got - as you said - 1953 by the new (and old) PM Churchill for his deeds during WW II. He would have stayed a "Sir" Harris, I guess, even if he would have opposed against Prof. Frederick Lindemann, 1st Viscount Cherwell, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lin...scount_Cherwell plans of war (Lindemann was maybe THE most influential adviser to Churchill).

Just for illustration, some statements of "Bomber Harris":

"I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier."

"In spite of all that happened at Hamburg, bombing proved a relatively humane method."

I guess, that the views of the 1st Baronet of Chipping Wycombe are at least worth a discussion .

No, we also have Protestant chaplains within the Austrian Armed Forces and soon we will get two Islamic imans, but the big majority is Catholic - as in Ireland or Poland.

You are exactly right, Austrians have been "key-players" - besides of Adolf Hitler - in the Holocaust, KZ-system and SS. Two days ago, Prof. Ian Kershaw told in an interview for an Austrian magazine, that the share of the Austrians (according to the size of their population) within the Holocaust-System was much higher, than of the Germans. AND exactly 70 years ago, Adolf Hitler was more wellcomed in Austria, than in any other part of Europe . After 1945 the Austrians made the world to believe, that Hitler had been a German and Beethoven an Austrian ...

From a military point of view Hiroshima & Nagasaki had been not neccessary. The two bombs had been just Truman's PR-show towards the Soviets. The extinction of the Japanese Kwantung Army on the Asian mainland by the Soviet Battle of Manchuria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm , broke the spine of the Japanese Armed Forces. Japanese documents show now very clearly, that the Soviet operations had more impact in the war cabinet, than the two US-bombs. BTW: The bombing of Tokio caused more losses, than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki together ...

Please don't speak about a race of people, who is busy with killing, torturing and murdering - it's neither the race, nor all people! It's just the leading class - or oligarchy -, which makes the war(s). Japanese ordinary people are as peaceful, as Irish or Austrian people.

Best regards

Christian

You are right, you are guessing, I believe he got his knighthood and pension and awards as befitting for for doing what he believed was right in WW2 along with his service pre-WW2. As to the opinions of the Hamburger's and Dresdener's, well, the losers in a conflict, especially one that they started, and supported, will always be sour, while they were on the winning streak and during the "Happy Time", I bet they did a lot of Swastika Flag waving and "Sieg Heiling", but, when the shoe is on the other foot they cry "no fair".

With regards, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they were perfectly acceptable targets of high war production, belonging to a race of people who were busy killing, torturing and murdering, their way a cross Asia, with no consideration for anybody but themselves, and even today they still manage to avoid admitting they were guilty.

Personally I do not see what your particular Religious Persuasion, has to do with your pamphlet writing job, unless, only Catholics are allowed to serve in the Austrian Armed Forces?? But there again there are many in Austria who have difficulty reconciling what was done in Austria, and by Austrians in the service of the Nazis, post Anschluss and in WW2.

Out of sight is out of mind for some eh?

[Kev in Deva]

This is way off the original topic, but:-

The reason the Bombs were dropped on Japan, was for rejecting the unconditional surrender, demanded.

And to save the 1-3 million Allied casualties, it was estimated the Allies, would incur in taking the islands by invasion.

The condition of the Japanese Kwantung Army on the Asian mainland facing the Soviets,

in during, and after the Battle of Manchuria, would have had no bearing on the Battle for the Japanese home islands,

in fact, the people of the Japanese homelands had hardly anyknowledge of how these troops were fairing and certainly the

Japanese High Command were not telling the people of the Japanese Homeland about their losses, to much "face" would

have been lost.

It is also known that even after the second bomb was used, the Japanese High Command was still urging for the war to be

continued, it took a direct order from the "Living God" to force them to accept the war was in deed over.

More people died in the fires caused by the bombing of Tokyo, than were lost to the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Again a case of reaping what they sowed. The Japanese started the campaign in 1936 against the Chinese.

Kevin in Deva.

[Sergey]

I think that you are right both. Probably it would be necessary to live in the fortieth years what to understand true. However today to throw bombs to Yugoslavia it is extreme cruelty

[Christian Zulus]

However today to throw bombs to Yugoslavia it is extreme cruelty

Dear Sergey,

many thanks for your point of view .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Military History in Asia 1945

Dear Kevin,

to start with the end of your posting:

You are exactly right: WW II started 1936 in China (or 1914 in Sarajevo ) and the Imperial Japanese Army got "(in)famous" for their Nanking Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre in december 1937, where they murdered about 300.000 Chinese civilians .

The undisputed historic fact is, that USA & USSR agreed in Yalta and fixed it in Potsdam, that the Red Army will sacrifice Soviet soldiers for finishing up with the Imperial Japanese Army. Roosevelt & Truman did a lot of pressure in that issue.

Actually a US-Invasion of the Japanes main islands, of China, Manchuria and Korea had been never a relastic option for the US-Admininstration for two reasons:

- the USA had no money and resources at all for going on with that war till 1946 - they were exhausted

- the estimated losses, you already mentioned, wouldn't have been hardly acceptable for the US-Public

So that issue was handed over to "Uncle Joe" with his victorious Red Army. O.K., for the Soviet's engagement in the Far East, they "got" something in Europe ... Anyhow, Marshal Vasilevsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Vasilevsky did in Asia with his operation "August Storm" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_August_Storm an excellent job, which is regarded as one of the most perfect operations in military history. Vasilevsky got for his job another Order of Lenin, due to the fact, that Stalin couldn't give him another Order of Victory, because Vasilevsky received already 2 items of that order for his strategic leadership in Europe. But Vasilevsky was happy about the Lenin, as he writes in his memoirs.

Let us formulate it this way: There had been some problems in communication between the "Living God" Tenno Hirohito http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito and his war cabinet. It is documented, that Hirohito said, after the Soviet Union entered the war in Asia, that their war is now finished and that Japan should accept the unconditional surrender (before the USA dropped the bomb!). It is also documented, that the US-Adminstration wasn't able - or didn't want to be able - to formulate that document of unconditional surrender in the correct (Japanese) style (not touching their "Living God" etc. etc.). O.K., the end of the war in Asia was delayed for some weeks and the US-Adminstration had the possibility to demonstrate the horror of nuclear bombs twice .

Again, to sacrifice up to 3 million US-boys for an invasion in Japan & China - far away from the US-Homeland - was never a relastic option - neither for Roosevelt, nor for Truman. Remember that great movie "Letters from Ivo Jima" http://iwojimathemovie.warnerbros.com/lett.../framework.html . The invasion at the Japanese homeland would have resulted in thousends of Ivo Jima's. It's a big difference to fight against reluctant Germans in northern France, than to fight against the monster in it's own cave, as the Red Army did in Berlin.

Best regards

Christian

This is way off the original topic, but:-

The reason the Bombs were dropped on Japan, was for rejecting the unconditional surrender, demanded.

And to save the 1-3 million Allied casualties, it was estimated the Allies, would incur in taking the islands by invasion.

The condition of the Japanese Kwantung Army on the Asian mainland facing the Soviets,

in during, and after the Battle of Manchuria, would have had no bearing on the Battle for the Japanese home islands,

in fact, the people of the Japanese homelands had hardly anyknowledge of how these troops were fairing and certainly the

Japanese High Command were not telling the people of the Japanese Homeland about their losses, to much "face" would

have been lost.

It is also known that even after the second bomb was used, the Japanese High Command was still urging for the war to be

continued, it took a direct order from the "Living God" to force them to accept the war was in deed over.

More people died in the fires caused by the bombing of Tokyo, than were lost to the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Again a case of reaping what they sowed. The Japanese started the campaign in 1936 against the Chinese.

Kevin in Deva.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I believe that an apology is in order and I would like to make it. In reaction to post #5, I foolishly took the bait, made a ?smart? reply in post #8 thereby turning what had been a rather fun and clever thread off into what has now disintegrated into our biannual harangue on everything that is wrong with America.

Mr. Zulus, my wife?s father was wounded fighting ?against the monster in it?s own cave? on Iwo Jima; as was my son?s Godfather. I wish that you could have had the opportunity to inform my father?s brother as to how ?ineffectual? his twenty-four missions over Germany were, when he returned home after being a German POW for over two years - and that?s just the beginning.... I would appreciate if you would save your political drivel for one of the many chat rooms that would thrive on it; but in the future, at this site, I for one, would like to ask that you check your guns at the door and keep the politics out of it.

Incidentally, I thought that post #1 was quite humorous; but judging from the new uniform styles that have been introduced in Russia lately, I think that Ed Haynes might be on the right track in post #4 - shades of President Nixon?s disastrous, and mercifully short lived, Hollywood costumes for the White House Guards which had no place in American culture. The difference is that reaching back to Czarist uniform styles at least relates to an era of their history (which they may choose to accept or reject, that?s their business), which certainly produced some of the most handsome uniforms ever.

Again, Gentlemen, I apologize for causing this thread to become the victim of a political hijacking and the resulting lectures that we have had, admittedly by choice, to endure.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

*** WARNING !!!!

THIS POST

CONTAINS

H-U-M-O-R

YOU HAVE BEEN

WARNED !!! ***

The most tragic disease facing the human race today is

Humor Deficit Disorder.

Humor is, of course, a greater weapon than atomic bombs. Tyrants quail under the force of derisive laughter. There is no counter-measure--even the Gulag--that can stop a joke.

But HDD sufferers cannot comprehend laughter. They don't "get" jokes. Laughter--of the kind derived from abusing small, helpless furry creatures is the closest they'll ever come. All they feel, being mentally inadequate, is monomaniacal anger. Its sufferers are incurable, and never stop trying to turn everyone else into rabid socially defective dullards like themselves.

There is no telethon yet for HDD,

but when there is, please give generously.

[Wild Card]

True and well said. I just did not want (my) silence to be misinterpreted as agreement and acceptance.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Rick,

great picture - many thanks for posting .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Remember, most of my threads with a certain (European) humoristic point of view have been either blocked or delated, because some GMIC-members with US-passports felt offended. So, to prevent blocking or deleting, I am writing my postings in a more or less sober or academic style. There is still some (European) humor shining through, but usually not offending some GMIC-members with US-passports (there are still enough US-GMIC-members, who like my postings and inputs ). It might seem useful to create some "GMIC-Humor-Regulations" ...

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread with interest.

Having been born just after the end of the Second World War I have no first-hand knowledge of what had gone on. Of course I also had no first-hand knowledge of any propaganda that we may or may not have been fed. I have read a lot of material on this subject and there are so many opinions written that the more I study the subject the less I seem to know. Or at least that I can accept as truth.

As a child I thought as I was told, that "we" were on the side of right and "they" were totally evil. Now even my father who flew bombing missions over Hamburg has his doubts that they were doing the right thing. He flew in the last Canadian mission of the war in Europe and bombed the small island of Helgoland. There was a small air base situated on the island but there was no fuel left for the fighters stationed there. My father said that they dropped so many bombs on that island that it should have been blown below the waterline (sunk so-to-speak). He has always said that they murdered those poor German Airmen for no reason what so ever. I guess we can all second guess ourselves about the past.

Cheers

And thanks for an interesting post.

Brian

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Wild Card,

why to apologize ? That thread was thought to be humoristic and an Irish soldier and an Austrian soldier exchanged their points of view about WW II in Asia 1945 + the policy of the US-Administration at that time in a rather sober & academic non-offensive style. And a GMIC-member from Russia meant, that it wasn't o.k., that the US bombed a country in Europe some years ago. What's wrong ? GMIC shouldn't be translated into "Gentleman's Mobbing Interest Club" . Rick brought the thread back to the humoristic track - and that's fine.

Listen, the Serbs didn't bomb the beautiful Adirondacks. It was the opposite way: The US bombed Serbia. BTW: Central Serbia has a rather similar landscape as in the Adirondacks .

I feel sorry for your father in law and your uncle, but I guess, that they hadn't been in the position to take any influence into the policy of the US-Adminstration. I can tell you rather similar stories from my family and I guess, that Sergey might tell you also rather similar stories from his family during the Great Patriotic War in Russia. I stated in my posting, that the US-Adminstration wanted to prevent a 2nd Ivo Jima. So, where is the logic content of your statement ?

I am not against the USA: I love President Roosevelt, I like President Carter and I have great admiration towards the history of the United States of America - specially in the age of the 18th century, when your people invented democracy.

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

I believe that an apology is in order and I would like to make it. In reaction to post #5, I foolishly took the bait, made a ?smart? reply in post #8 thereby turning what had been a rather fun and clever thread off into what has now disintegrated into our biannual harangue on everything that is wrong with America.

Mr. Zulus, my wife?s father was wounded fighting ?against the monster in it?s own cave? on Iwo Jima; as was my son?s Godfather. I wish that you could have had the opportunity to inform my father?s brother as to how ?ineffectual? his twenty-four missions over Germany were, when he returned home after being a German POW for over two years - and that?s just the beginning.... I would appreciate if you would save your political drivel for one of the many chat rooms that would thrive on it; but in the future, at this site, I for one, would like to ask that you check your guns at the door and keep the politics out of it.

Incidentally, I thought that post #1 was quite humorous; but judging from the new uniform styles that have been introduced in Russia lately, I think that Ed Haynes might be on the right track in post #4 - shades of President Nixon?s disastrous, and mercifully short lived, Hollywood costumes for the White House Guards which had no place in American culture. The difference is that reaching back to Czarist uniform styles at least relates to an era of their history (which they may choose to accept or reject, that?s their business), which certainly produced some of the most handsome uniforms ever.

Again, Gentlemen, I apologize for causing this thread to become the victim of a political hijacking and the resulting lectures that we have had, admittedly by choice, to endure.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Brian,

many thanks for your "first-hand" contribution and for your interest into our discussion .

At the 18th of april 1947 the British did much more harm to that small island for birds, as your father and his comrades did: They blow up 6700 tons of explosives in a cave for submarines. That had been the biggest non-nuclear explosion in the history of mankind and changed the landscape of Helgoland .

Best regards

Christian

Hello Gentlemen,

I have been following this thread with interest.

Having been born just after the end of the Second World War I have no first-hand knowledge of what had gone on. Of course I also had no first-hand knowledge of any propaganda that we may or may not have been fed. I have read a lot of material on this subject and there are so many opinions written that the more I study the subject the less I seem to know. Or at least that I can accept as truth.

As a child I thought as I was told, that "we" were on the side of right and "they" were totally evil. Now even my father who flew bombing missions over Hamburg has his doubts that they were doing the right thing. He flew in the last Canadian mission of the war in Europe and bombed the small island of Helgoland. There was a small air base situated on the island but there was no fuel left for the fighters stationed there. My father said that they dropped so many bombs on that island that it should have been blown below the waterline (sunk so-to-speak). He has always said that they murdered those poor German Airmen for no reason what so ever. I guess we can all second guess ourselves about the past.

Cheers

And thanks for an interesting post.

Brian

[Andwwils]

Speaking of Leonid Brezhnev...

I recently saw a picture of Brezhnev smoking an unfiltered cigarette - at age 68 - in the White House with President Ford.

Anyone see the irony in such an image, especially in contrast to today's American culture of anti-tobacco? Great image for thought, if only I had it in jpeg form.

Nevermind me, resume your other discussions.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Andwwils