Bavarian Military Merit Order W/X 4th Class

[A Collector]

My question about this order concerns the area within the red box. I have seen many of these that featured the thick borders along the reverse of the lower arms while the obverse does not have this feature. Additionally, I have also seen other examples where the border is the same thickness on ALL of the arms (obverse/reverse). I always thought it was very odd that the lower reverse arm only exhibited this characteristic on some examples. Is this something to be wary of or is it just a case of a manufacturing variant?

This photo comes from ebay.

Edited May 8, 2008 by A Collector

[Stogieman]

Varies by Maker. I think Lesser did this thicker lower edge varient. Maker marks/content marks for silver are usually found on the back of the swords. The bar on eBay from California was just auctioned off in Germany. Now it's for sale with a reserve in California. 10-Place bar?

[A Collector]

Varies by Maker. I think Lesser did this thicker lower edge varient. Maker marks/content marks for silver are usually found on the back of the swords. The bar on eBay from California was just auctioned off in Germany. Now it's for sale with a reserve in California. 10-Place bar?

Thanks. Yes indeed, the 10 place bar at auction right now. The seller states the swords are marked "800" on the reverse of the swords.

That leads me to another question about this order. I have seen these in higher content marks ie 900, and 950. Is this an indicator of time frame of manufacture (early/late war) or merely preference of the awarding state as to what content purchased? I ask this because I know silver content marks are sometimes factored into EK manufacture timeframes...thanks again.

[Guest Rick Research]

German collectors here have pointed out that the thick lower reverse arm is invariably tied to Orders which no longer have real gold center disks, but only late war silver-gilt ones. There does not seem to have been any good REASON for this (I had always simply dismissed it as extra protection on the surface where enamel was most at risk, without ever correlating the disks detail), but that's been proven on every single BMV4X I've seen since being educated about this.

Not being a habitu? of eBay, I am completely unaware of this Much Travelled Bar, and so unable to offer any comment on the rest of its unseen combination and construction.

[A Collector]

Hi Rick, thanks for the reply. Here is the bar for all interested.

Obverse:

[A Collector]

And the reeeeeeeeeeverse :

[Stogieman]

An interesting point Rick. One I don't remember being shared before!

Hmmmmmm!

[Franken75]

Varies by Maker. I think Lesser did this thicker lower edge varient. Maker marks/content marks for silver are usually found on the back of the swords. The bar on eBay from California was just auctioned off in Germany. Now it's for sale with a reserve in California. 10-Place bar?

The Maker is Hemmerle

Regards

[Stogieman]

Thanks! I've owned many a fourth class over the years but could not remember all the details!

[Guest Rick Research]

The hook (all that is left of the missing pin AND hinge) suggests a normal horizontal bar. Having a heavy Frackspange with all its weight bearing on a catch that if it slipped would cause the entire bar to fall off (as here) would be quite risky.

The non-war related 1914 Austro-Hungarian Red Cross Decoration seems quite odd for a foreign military recipient-- or has the KD wreath simply popped off and been lost?

At this point I am starting to twitch about every single bar I see, given how much CRAP there is being churned out by the criminals eBay sponsors, shields, protects, and encourages.

[EuRob]

German collectors here have pointed out that the thick lower reverse arm is invariably tied to Orders which no longer have real gold center disks, but only late war silver-gilt ones. There does not seem to have been any good REASON for this (I had always simply dismissed it as extra protection on the surface where enamel was most at risk, without ever correlating the disks detail), but that's been proven on every single BMV4X I've seen since being educated about this.

The Maker is Hemmerle

Regards

I was led to believe that G. Hemmerle always made real gold centres Or was that only on earlier BMV4X pre '14?

Rob

[Mike Huxley]

Rick,

The theory you put forward for the thicker lower silver edge on some of these awards is very interesting, I had not noticed this before it was brought up on this thread.

Having checked out my BMVO's I too can see a difference between the earlier awards and the later ones.

To show this, here is the reverse of a, although slightly damaged, early "Lesser" award with all round thin silver edges and a much later "Weiss & Co" piece .

Edited May 12, 2008 by Mike Huxley

[Ulsterman]

The hook (all that is left of the missing pin AND hinge) suggests a normal horizontal bar. Having a heavy Frackspange with all its weight bearing on a catch that if it slipped would cause the entire bar to fall off (as here) would be quite risky.

The non-war related 1914 Austro-Hungarian Red Cross Decoration seems quite odd for a foreign military recipient-- or has the KD wreath simply popped off and been lost?

At this point I am starting to twitch about every single bar I see, given how much CRAP there is being churned out by the criminals eBay sponsors, shields, protects, and encourages.

An Unterarzt with Weimar era Wittelsbach connections?