Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 scanned in its glass frame with an epson....Maybe the most descriptive citation I have found so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 What a beauty ! Can you scan the name of the general please.RegardsChristophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Yowzah!!!! And to think this sort of citation did NOT get an EK!!! Exceptionally wel done, too.I can't read the Uffz's name-- Fretag? Frotag? I have thgis regimental history, so can see what there is on the action-- and whether he survived or not. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 HI,I am pretty sure that these citations or Annerkennung certificates (not ALL the ones for patrols, but the REAL citation ones) were a step above the EK... when the next medal was one step too high.Some Korps gave out certificates for patrol work, these are not the same as an annerkennungs Urkunde.Signature in Von B?hn.I assume the action must have been in early September.BestChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 Unteroffizier FESTAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 :beer: Will go look through the 163rd history when I go offline and report back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 See here for the documents given to thank men for going on patrols....http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/40802.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 OK, I've been and gone through the regimental history from June to November 1915 and no mention of this action-- though there was for others that were similar.The general situation seems to have been that the French opposite were very actively advancing saps towards the German lines, leaving work parties in little "holes" until they could dig from one to the other, making an entire trench system that crept forward. They'd just switched from blue and red uniforms to the new horizon blue, causing several sets of "friendly fire" casualties as Germans in Feldgrau were fired on in mistake for the "new" French drab.Gas had been newly introduced as well, making everyone skittish. Primitive trench mortars were starting to appeaar-- and seemed more dangerous than useful. IR 163 seemss to have said thanks but no thanks to those and stayed with hand grenades at this period.General von Boehn seems to have been a much liked "forward" General and is often mentioned as showing up personally to hand out Iron Crosses, attend musical comedy reviews, and just spend time in the trenches with the men. Festag was not killed in the 4th Company, though there is also mention as the year progressed of more and more personnel being removed to beef up brand new war units, having a negative impact on small unit cohesion and morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 Thank ye very much.It was a "Between the battles" period.Will be a great page for the kaiserscross :-))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
censlenov Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I'm interested in this thread but as i don't know any German could some one perhaps translate the citation? I feel like i'm missing out on the guts of the discussion.CheersChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 "RecognitionI express to Unteroffizier Festag of the 4th Companyof Schlesig-Holstein Infantry Regiment 163my particular appreciationin that he, as leader of a patrol which had the missionto capture a strong enemy outpost, by his braveryand composure especially distinguished himself. Thereby, thathe shot many Frenchmen, and the corpse of a Frenchmanbrought back to the lines, by which significantidentitication could be made.Corps Headquarters on the 15th September 1915(signed) von BoehnGeneral der Infanterie"Although this certificate does not specify any tangible reward, such citations were often accompanied by a gift like an engraved watch, or a presentation bayonet, or even cash. Some regimentas and divisions made unofficial medals for this purpose too. He may also have received something far more valuable-- extra and instant home leave. Coming from The Big Man, this would almost certainly have been presented personally by the General-- and possibly had a nice photo taken of the occasion as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
censlenov Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 that is a great citation would have been an MID at that time in the CEF or BEF i'm sure.CheersChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 That is EXACTLY the equivalent. Such citations are in many ways HIGHER than a "mere" Iron Cross 2nd Class (presumably Uffz Festag already had one) and would have earned a nice Croix de Guerre or an additional device to one from his opposites. These are very hard to find, and rarely received notation in the man's military papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 I'm interested in this thread but as i don't know any German could some one perhaps translate the citation? I feel like i'm missing out on the guts of the discussion.CheersChrisSorry, I was going to get around to doing that... but went to the lake for the afternoon instead ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 "RecognitionI express to Unteroffizier Festag of the 4th Companyof Schlesig-Holstein Infantry Regiment 163my particular appreciationin that he, as leader of a patrol which had the missionto capture a strong enemy outpost, by his braveryand composure especially distinguished himself. Thereby, thathe shot many Frenchmen, and the corpse of a Frenchmanbrought back to the lines, by which significantidentitication could be made.What gets me is..... why carry the body back?Surely his papers and collar tabs would have been enough?What kind of info does a body provide? "We had a brown haired Frenchman with a beard in front of pur positions.... but now he is dead..." ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 "Sorry, I was going to get around to doing that... but went to the lake for the afternoon instead" and me slaving over a hot keyboard with nooooooooooooo air conditioning!!!!! I think maybe the third time or so he came back and somebody at Brigade sneered at him"Oh yeah? PROVE you engaged the enemy...."and perhaps he was not the type to transport Portable Portions. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Would you think that other descriptive Annerkennungen, which are signed by lesser officers, like the regimental commander, would have the same level of significance?Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hard to say. Being unofficial-- and rarely seen-- no way to tell how widespread these were.DID every Regiment issue them? Probably not.I would think these reflect the personalities and inclinations of the command officers--possibly their wealth as well, since anything handed out would have had to come out of their personal or unit funds.Something like a nice presentation watch would have rated higher than a piece of paper-- at least if I was the recipient! :cheeky: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 Would you think that other descriptive Annerkennungen, which are signed by lesser officers, like the regimental commander, would have the same level of significance?ChipI would say they could all potentially mean the same.As seen on the link a few posts above, Some Corps had standard certificates for all participants on Patrols. There is no citation included on the documents, but it does not mean that they are any less interesting.Festag's document is so much more interesting because it has the description, but it does not mean the others had not done similar things.As with the EK docs, I dont think the level of the signature has anything to do with the level of the annerkenung. Here we see 2 docs... both for patrols on the Somme.... one signed by Corps, one by Regt.... simply different administrative levels as they were given to all patrollers in the sector...http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/40802.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 In another sector they gave out these...http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/40193.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 Here you can see a Bavarian division Anerkennung that was issued for fighting as opposed for patrols (Although this one was for service)Above it shows a Croix de Guerre certificate that always have the exact citaion on them..http://www.kaiserscross.com/40056/41640.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIR Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 I think so too, that any regiment had this kind of documents, in the early war-years the lower ranks get this instead of an iron cross (mostly) .Best regards,Jens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIR Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 ... one more! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Here is one from the Baden IR112 for the fighting in April 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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